Asian Games: Sun Yang Rattles Grant Hackett's World Record, Ye Shiwen Shines -- November 18, 2010

GUANGZHOU, China, November 18. THE Asian Games came to a close with two particularly strong swims in the long course meter format in Guanzhou this evening.

China's Sun Yang derailed the Tae Hwan Park train in the men's 1500 free with an Asian record of 14:35.43 in the metric mile. Sun demolished his previously top-ranked effort of 14:47.46 from Chinese Nationals, and also far surpassed Zhang Lin's Asian record of 14:45.84. Sun's strong time finished second all-time behind only Grant Hackett's world record of 14:34.56 from the 2001 World Championships, and well ahead of Ous Mellouli's 14:37.28 from the 2009 World Championships to comprise the sub-14:40 club.

Park, who had already won the 100, 200 and 400 freestyle events, was going for an unprecedented 100-1500 sweep, but fell short with a second-place 15:01.72. No one, male or female, has ever won the 100-1500 freestyle events in a major international event. Zhang rounded out the podium tonight with a third-place 15:22.03.

China's Ye Shiwen, 14, became just the second swimmer in a textile suit to clear the old drug-tainted world record of 2:09.72 set by compatriot Wu Yanyan in 1997 in the women's 200 IM. Ye posted the top-ranked time in the world with a 2:09.37 to move into a tie for seventh on the all-time list. Only Alicia Coutts of Australia (2:09.70) has bested Wu former global mark in textile, and that time came at the Commonwealth Games last month. Ye's previous best had been a seventh-ranked season best of 2:10.32 set at Chinese Nationals in April.

China's Wang Qun touched second in 2:12.02, coming up short of her 12th-ranked season best of 2:11.26 set at Chinese Nationals. South Korea's Choi Hye Ra finished third overall in 2:12.85.

Japan's Junya Koga snatched the men's 50 back title in 25.08, coming up short of his fifth-ranked season best of 24.86 set at Pan Pacs in August. Teammate Ryosuke Irie earned second in 25.16, matching his 16th-ranked season best from Japanese Nationals in April. China's Cheng Feiyi took third in 25.30.

Japan's Naoya Tomita won the men's 200 breast crown in 2:10.36. He's been faster this year with a second-ranked 2:08.94 from the Japanese University meet in September. China's Xue Ruipeng tied with South Korea's Choi Kyuwoong for second with matching 2:12.25s.

Singapore's Li Tao snared the women's 50 fly victory in 26.10. She improved to eighth in the world rankings, up from her previous season best of 26.64 set in Singapore in June. Japan's Yuka Kato touched second in 26.27, while China's Lu Ying placed third in 26.29. Kato moved into a 12th-place tie in the rankings, while Lu improved to 14th overall.

In an exciting finish to an exciting meet, China touched out Japan, 3:34.01 to 3:34.10, in the men's 400 medley relay. China's team was comprised of Sun Xiaolei, Wang Shuai, Zhou Jiawei and Li Zhiwu, while Japan's team was Ryosuke Irie, Ryo Tateishi, Takuro Fujii and Rammaru Harada. Japan led until the final leg with Harada taking a 2:45.07 to 2:46.27 lead into the water. Li, however, tracked him down in the end.

Results: Asian Games

Search For More News About: Sun Yang

Reaction Time Comments
Reaction Time responses do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions
of Swimming World Magazine or

Reaction Time is provided as a service to our readers.

November 18, 2010 Wow, I would suggest that Sun's 1500 is the top swim in the world this year, followed closely by Lochte's 200 IM and Soni's 200 Breast. I thought he might have a good swim after his 400 free (3:42). Also, even though he finished a far second, great meet for Park.
Submitted by: teamwiess
November 18, 2010 China was disqualified in the men's 4x100 medlay relay.
Submitted by: chris
November 18, 2010 My apology but with regard to my previous statement, I forgot about Lacourt's great backstrokes (50,100) this year. Both were incredible and I would classify them as a close second with the other swims I mentioned. I am biased however, I think Hackett's 1500 is amazing and for SUn to come so close to it still leave me with that as the top swim this year.
Submitted by: teamwiess
November 18, 2010 I called that based on previous improvements from Chinese Nationals that Sun would rattle Hackett's record, but that last 100 of 54.40 is mindboggling. Zhou Jing also virtually negative split the 200 backstroke for a time faster than Egerszegi. How are they able to come back faster than everyone in the world?
Submitted by: jjswim
November 18, 2010 imo, Sun's 1,500 is definitely the swim of the year.
To come THAT close to Hackett's and swimming that incredible last 50??

Submitted by: aswimfan
November 18, 2010 Sun Amazing!
However dont forget Shiwen, she looks set to be the Feamle Phelps...Pumping out times!
Submitted by: Doodledo
November 18, 2010 jjswim,

I smell steroids once again in the mix. To a lesser degree among the men than the women's team. Not surprisingly, that was the hallmark of the East Germans, as well. The women always got a greater boost than the men while on these drugs.

Just for some perspective, Shiwen's time converts to 1:52.16 in short course yards. For a 14 year old girl in a textile suit?!
Submitted by: mario2007
November 18, 2010 jjswim,

I smell steroids once again in the mix. To a lesser degree among the men than the women's team. Not surprisingly, that was the hallmark of the East Germans, as well. The women always got a greater boost than the men while on these drugs.

Just for some perspective, Shiwen's time converts to 1:52.16 in short course yards. For a 14 year old girl in a textile suit?!#@ I'd be interested in knowing how many 14 year old boys have EVER swam that time in a textile suit.

Lets not be so quick to praise here. I smell cheaters. Lets also not forget how brazenly the Chinese have cheated in the past.
Submitted by: mario2007
November 18, 2010 history does repeat itself.
Submitted by: philipmj24
November 18, 2010 Whats incredible about Sun Yang's, Ye Shiwen's and Zhao Jing's is the last 50 or 100 of their races. I think all of them posted the fastest last 50 and 100 ever by quite a margin.

We certainly can discard the suit effect now, so that leaves us with the possibility (other than you-know-what) that the chinese have invented new training and/or conditioning techniques.
Submitted by: aswimfan
November 18, 2010 Doesn't Sun Yang train in Australia with Hackett's old coach?
Submitted by: joebob
November 18, 2010 Ye Shiwen's final 50 is 29.77. Alice Mills had a faster final 50 from the 2003 WCs (where she claimed silver in 2:12.75).
Submitted by: chris
November 18, 2010 Yes Sun had trained in Australia under Hackett's old coach. Zhao Jing had also trained in Australia for a while earlier this year.
Submitted by: chris
November 18, 2010 Far be it from me to cast aspersions an/or suspicions on the outstanding performances turned in by Mr. Yang and Ms. Shiwen, among others, but does anybody happento remember oh, say, Mmnes. Petara Scneider/Ute Geweniger/Rica Reinisch/Kriten Otto and "Konnie Matthes," among others?

We were alll amazed and astounded by ghdif prforman es @ Monrezal, Moscow and Guayaquil, just to name threecompetitions were these "sweet young things" turned in mind-bogling swims 30-plus years ago until we fondit was all a scam.

Ditto with the Chienese here.

Let 'em do it@ London nder stricti international supervision and then we'll see how fast they really are.

Yang's probably legit but as for the women...give me a break.

If they're NOTt juiced to the gills and beyond then I'm Mark Schubert!
Submitted by: slickwillie32
November 18, 2010 I'm inclined to agree with slickwillie.

Yang had a Hacket-like performance in this competition, and historically, steroids have not provided a great edge at distance events. The girls are powering away like nobody's business.

As for comparing Alice Mills' faster last 50 in the 200IM vs. Shiwen's, well two things come to mind. She swam over 3 seconds slower, and she was 3 years older than Shiwen. I saw this year's Pan Pacs in which Seebohm won with 2:09.93 and I recall the first 100 was very fast and the third 50 went at a decent clip followed by a fast last lap. This girl just beat that by over half a second. 14 years old. I'm not buying it.
Submitted by: mario2007
November 19, 2010 Funny sentence:

China's Ye Shiwen, 14, became just the second swimmer in a textile suit to clear the old drug-tainted world record of 2:09.72 set by compatriot Wu Yanyan in 1997 in the women's 200 IM.

Wu Yanyan was 19 going on 20 yrs old when she set that record.
Submitted by: mario2007
November 19, 2010 whatever Yang is taking, they should give to Zhang Lin. The 800 world-record holder did not impress. he didn't swim well, but at least it was probably legitimate. maybe that's why they kept Yang from Pan Pacs. He was probably to busy getting juiced.

i don't want to come off as a jealous American but you gotta put you foot down at some point. this isn't about the Chinese. i'm sure they have clean swimmers that work their butts off. but you use some common sense sometimes and lose the naivety.

Shiwen, at just 14 years old, is probably the most blatant case. you just can't come out of nowhere like that. there is obviously something going on. As for Yang. What was his PR before his almost world record performance? A massive PR like that should raise some red flags.

in the end, however, i have no proof. nationality does not matter. if they were American, i would be bringing up the same issue.
Submitted by: philipmj24
November 19, 2010 Ditto, philipmj24.
Submitted by: mario2007
November 19, 2010 Sun's legit or at least his times would make it appear so.


He was 3:45.22 @ their Nationals/Asian Games Tials end of August and 3:46.2 @ the National Games a year ago.

And he was 14:46+ in the mile @ Rome so his drops, while impressive, are not at all out of the realm of possibility.

That "five-year-old" IMer (Shi Wen Yi) is a horse of a differentcolor, a different situation entirely.

She was 2:10.3 @ their Nationals in April and she drops a second here--first major international competition, at home, blah blah blah -- so she could be kosher.

Look, we're 10,000 miles away and we have no idea how she trains or what her dietary practices are, we can only speculate/guess, and until we have actual proof let's not cast the first stone.

We all know that if it weren't for America's voracious consumption of illicit drugs the economies of Mexico and Colombia would be bankrupt so we're no innocent babes in the woods. Who knows how many of our leading lights are juiced? Stands to rrason with so any PEDs floating around SOMEBODY would be more than a little bit tempted.

Untl they [the Chinese] get nabbed again like they did after Rome 16 years ago all we have to go on is suspicion and innuendo, and that ain't good enough for a conviction.

Wonder where Hui Qi was plus some other leading Chinese lights?

They didn't have the first team in action for the most part.

Oh and here are a couple of other impressive drops at the Games by non-Chinese swimmers that arguably could raise eyebrows but we have no reason to believe they're not leghit.

Li Tao, the Singapore girl who won 50 fly, dropped from a NR 26.64 in the summer to a gold-medal winning 26.10.

Five tenths in just a few months in a 50 fly?

Well she's been 57+ in 100 so arguably no big deal.

And the Korean girl who was thrid in 200 IM went from a 2:15 high @ Beijing prelims to a 2:12+ here.

Not bad.

Doha in a couple of weeks plus Shanghai next summer will give us a far clearer picture of where the Chinese are at/stack up globally.

Let's also remember: we must not cast aspersons against Chinese bretherern [friendship first, competition second!] or or else Chairman Mao'l Mao 'll tell 'em to stop buying our treasury notes and we'll be broker than we are now!
Submitted by: slickwillie32
November 19, 2010 Dos mas "great leaps forward."

The Chinese woman who won the 800 free dropped about four seconds from her old pr earlier in year and the runner-up Chinese woman dropped from an 8:32 to an 8:24.14.

Not too shabby.

Better go an extra 20,000, Allison Schmitt/Chloe Sutton/Katie Hoff/Kate Ziegler!!!

If you want to see some pretty quick yards timesfrom early in the season, check out the Arena Invitational @ Belmont Plaza last nite, especaially Stanford's Betsy Webb's times in 50 free/100 back(medley relay leadoff in latter) + Maya DiRado in 200 IM.

The Cardinal have some "horses" if you'll pardon the expression.

Not that Florida, Texas and Georgia don't but the Cardinal is my pick for NCAAs.

But then I also thought Floida and Texas would vie for the BCS title too and UCLA'd win the Pac-10.
Submitted by: slickwillie32
November 19, 2010 SW32,

I don't believe they're all juicing, maybe just a couple. My prime suspect is the 14yo IMer.
Submitted by: mario2007
November 19, 2010 I do not see why 14 yo has to be linked to juicing, if you can get better result by juicing a 24 yo. To some if a 14 yo of their own it is gifted, and others it is juiced.
Submitted by: rich1234
November 19, 2010 in the men's 1500, for most of the race, Sun Yang was over world-record pace (at 1000 3.14, 1200 3.49, 1300 3.47, 1400 3.14). his last 100 has to be one the greatest finishing kicks of all-time.
Submitted by: philipmj24
November 19, 2010 15:20s, here we come!
Submitted by: paddles
November 19, 2010 to rich1234,

Read the Wiki on Wu Yanyan, and you'll start to put into context the term "powered down". These kind of results are textbook Chinese practice.

A 14 yo is gifted if she can swim the 200IM long course in 2:15. Check out what other historically gifted female swimmers have done in the 200IM at the age of 14, who trained as long or even longer than this Chinese girl, and you'll find that her times are out of this world compared to those swimmers. I'm sure if you calculate regular growth cycle at that age and factor in anabolic steroids, you have a pretty powerful cocktail.

I would like to, once again, point out that her time equates to a 1:52.16 in short course. For a 14 yo girl in the 200IM. That's a phenomenal time for a 14yo boy in the 200IM. Very few high school state championships on the boys side are won with a faster time these days. We're talking 17, 18 year old 6ft plus well trained boys/men.

I simply keep pointing this out, because people have lost touch with reality when it comes to these performances. In part, we can all thank the wetsuits of 2008/2009 for that.
Submitted by: mario2007
November 20, 2010 Jason Marsteller, I suggest that mario2007 and people like him should be banned because of their continuous unfounded claims towards those Chinese swimmers whenever they can swim excellent times. How can one keeps in touch with reality by accusing the swimmers far away from where they are trained and compete? This is already defamation, which this site has already claimed not to tolerate.

To those constantly saying the Chinese swimmers come from nowhere, either you just deliberately choose to forget the previous news posted on this site, or your memory needs to improve.
Submitted by: tim
November 20, 2010 Thanks for the post, Tim.

We do not allow unfounded allegations of doping within the comment fields here at Swimming World. However, there are two cases where we allow some leeway, and they deal with China and Germany.

The reasoning behind this is that both of these countries engaged in systematic doping, and were caught doing so.

If a country is willing to go to such organized lengths for short-lived, immediate gratification at the time of the cheating, that country has accepted the likelihood that all future performances produced by the country are going to be shaded by these previous violations.

We, as an organization, have not reported anything specific recently from these two countries, but we are not going to forcibly tell our readership they are not allowed to question performances from these two countries in light of the previous systematic transgressions.

There is a distinct difference between what we specifically report, and what we allow from users in a public forum to speak their beliefs.
Submitted by: Jason Marsteller
November 20, 2010 Jason Marsteller:

Thanks for letting us know about this site's official take publicly, which is what I have expected for a long time.

I do not agree with all your sayings, because the "exception" that you make for monitoring Chinese swimming means that you allow any defamation on their swimmers.
Submitted by: tim
November 20, 2010 During the 1979 AAU Nationals in East LA (April '79) Mary T. went something like 55 low, 54 high in 100 fly and around 1:58 in 200 (scy). (This isfrom memory now so don't hold me to exact times.)

She made the Pan-Am team and in San Juan that summer -- around the same age or mebbe a year older than Shiwen -- T. set a world-record in 200 fly and then I think broke it again a month later @ AAU lcm meet in Fort Lauderdale.

I'm not saying the Chinese girl isn't juiced or that 2:10.37 lcm f for a 200 IM by a 14-yer-old girl is legit...I'm just saying that it isn't necessarily out of the realm of possibility.

And besides: she's still three seconds off Kukors' wr so who cares?

When she goes 2:05 @ Shanghai next summer -- or 1:55.0 @ Doha in three weeks -- then we can get all hot and bothered.

Yeah, let her race Phelps/Lochte and when she beats 'em by a pool length we'll know for sure the Chinese have been able to create a "Master Race" through talent identification, hard work and great coaching (chemisrtry?)

I mean doesn't it stand to reason that in a country with a couple of BILLION people there's bound to be at least one great 14-year-old female IMer???

Just look @ how great Yao Ming is.
Submitted by: slickwillie32
November 20, 2010 You and I have seen it all for so so many DECADES in this sport, I appreciate your willingness to not immediately point fingers. My confession is that I DO doubt and have high suspicions when great times and performances come out of China. It's human nature after their history of steroid use. But like you alluded to, we still need proof..... I respect your clear thinking. And like you said, let's see what happens at sc and lc worlds.
Submitted by: paddles
November 20, 2010 I was on the deck @ the 1981 European Championships in what was then Split, Yugoslavia and again the following summer @ Guayaquil (World Championships).

I was able to see/hear the "Fying Frauleins" up close and personal for the first time
and I have to admit I was taken aback -- shocked really -- at their masclinity and how they sounded.

Everybody I talked to (coaches, media, officials et al) just kind of winked and noddeed when I broached the topic oftheir "odd appearance" and accepted them as "natural."

They all knew what was going on but the conspiracy of silence was in full force.

I kept thinking to myself, "This cant possibluy be legit" and of course it isn't/wasn't.

Todaywe have theInternet so these suspicions can be voiced openly and dealt with in public.

The Chinese are a lot more subtle and sophisticated in their approach than the GDR was -- especially after the embarrassing fiasco @ the Rome World Championships 16 years ago -- but the bottom line is still the same: many of their women's performances in the pool still strain credulity.
Submitted by: slickwillie32
November 20, 2010 Amen to that Willie...definitely amen to that.
Submitted by: paddles
November 20, 2010 Mr. Marsteller said it all: China chose to put itself up for scrutiny...

YK, from Australia, is also just 14, and I didn´t hear anyone cry fowl on her performances.

Regardless of age, that IM time is just off the charts..AK´s time has the suit attached to it, so I don´t think it is fair to compare..

BUT, aside from suits, very few very very very talented women (did I say very talented women?) swam close to the former, drug-tainted record..

Natalie C. is one who comes to mind, but even she was wearing a suit, if memory serves me well.

Well, remember quite a few years ago, when Marion Jones was caught only after another athlete provided evidence? She lied all the way, even through Congress hearings..

Drug abuse is a matter of public health, and goes against all that an sport is supposed to be! We should fight it! Denounce it! Question it...
Submitted by: nadador
November 20, 2010 mario2007
take a look at the skill they put up. 15 yo runner-up in 800 free, 5'3 uses 36 strokes to finish a 50meter, what is your 6' boy takes?
Submitted by: rich1234
November 20, 2010 35 strokes to finish a 50 meter...that's some technique...

I remember the last worlds I swam..In a pool on the sand of the wonderful beach of Ipanema, in Brazil..the chinese women were huge, had no technique at all (36 strokes/50 meters)...that was just about when they got busted...
Submitted by: nadador
November 20, 2010 I am right there with slickwillie.

You guys remember how they mocked Shirley Babashoff for complaining back in 1976 - "Surly Shirley" is what they called her. The swimming community, indeed,

the International community failed her. But not only her, they cheated all the other athletes at those games, the 1980, 1984, and 1988 games. But not only

them. They also cheated the East German athletes. How many of these athletes today suffer from an untold number of health complications, because of the

systematic doping that they were compelled to undergo (not like they had much of a choice in that communist regime).

Tim - and the best that you can say is "... mario2007 and people like him should be banned because of their continuous unfounded claims..."

That's the exact thing that was said of those who complained in the past.

I'm NOT saying that with a 100% certainty I know that certain swimmers are on steroids. I can't know. But if I were a betting man, and I'm not, I would

feel pretty good about my chances of being proved right.

I have followed swimming fanatically for the better part of 3 decades, not as long as slickwillie, but I have seen these performance patterns from China

before and in the past they were proven guilty.

Two last comments. Remember how controversial the latex suits were last year. What kind of an outcry do you think would be heard if FINA all of a sudden

decided to reverse course and said, we're bringing them back.... Exactly.

This is way worse than that.


And anybody else (i'm thinking slickwillie), correct me if I'm wrong, but even Natalie Coughlin only had a 1:58 200IM short course 13-14 NAG record (or was

it an OLDER age group?).

Please understand, it's just that when I see these performances, once again in mainland China, I get the feeling that their screwing with me and I can't feel

good about their "accomplishments".

Too much praise. I say let's indulge in some cynicism, if only to keep level-headed about all this. I think it's called for. The moderator always has the

prerogative to ban me, but I think that at least in my case it would simply amount to unjustified censorship. So I'm grateful for Jason Marsteller voicing

his opinion about this already.
Submitted by: mario2007
November 20, 2010 right, flo-jo definitely had a choice, one way to (expletive deleted), :-)
Submitted by: zhaoleban
November 20, 2010 Mario, I am in agreement with you on may of your points. I will be the first to agree that there always are a few Chinese swimmers that always break through each year or two, and always in superhuman fashion. But to point the finger and not look around at other country's or at even our own history is hypocritical. As someone else mentioned, what of the "wunderkind" Mary T from the 70s, or Natalie from the 90's, those swims were crazy fast at the time! And we credit it to good coaching and talent, plain and simple. Is China not allowed to have very talented swimming as well? I am VERY aware of China's track record with doping, so you can save that response. But what no one may know is that China HAS taken huge steps to try to eliminate doping, and have increased their drug testing efforts 100% over the last few years. Now as China has a TRUE National Team assembled in Beijing, I can't say that there isn't a shroud of protection over a few of those athletes, but I do know what I see in the rest of the country. The Federation DOES see it as an embarrassment to the rest of the world I believe.

Also, I have observed this with the Chinese and swimming fast: pride is a HUGE, HUGE thing here. Most of the fast swims that are done by Chinese are done on Chinese soil (or water, pardon the pun). Unless you are Chinese or coach in China, you can't really understand what winning does for a Chinese athletes. It completely changes their life-financially, socially, and long term. Their motivations are much different that that of the States. Unfortunately, this also sheds light (to me anyway) of why the history of drug use. But whenever I see some of these fast swims in China, I am not really that surprised because I know how much it means to them. I would expect some fast swimming next summer in Shanghai as well.

Anyway, what I am saying is I do think most athletes here are clean. As in any country, there are always a few "bad seeds". But I think we have to not immediately assume the worst until the worst is confirmed. If we do, the we must also look at everyone else in the world, including ourselves. Instead of wearing that finger out, I would just rather try to enjoy watching some really fast swimming! My 2 cents...
Submitted by: Globalswim
November 20, 2010 Globalswim,

The difference with the "wunderkid" Mary T. and Natalie Coughlin is that:

1. They got tested up the wazoo
2. They come from countries who have traditionally only had isolated examples of cheats
3. If you look at their performances, they reached a peak level of performance and didn't drop off from it and were consistent with their performances regardless of the venue.

Mary T. was unique in the fly. There was really nobody like her in the USA, or even the world, for nigh on 20 years. There is a rather more substantial list of "super performers" coming from countries that don't have a fraction of the athletes competing in this sport that the US has. And, yes, by that I do mean China. Also, their super performers tend to only virtually explode on Chinese soil.

Are there cheaters in the good ole USA? Absolutely. Is it blatant, widespread, and systematic like it has been in communist countries - not by a long shot.

Remember that in other sports like gymnastics, it's been proven that China was cheating (as of even very recently - the age issue - underage athletes given false ages for eligibility purposes).

I'm not Chinese, but I did live a year in China, and I can tell you that human rights are not exactly high on their to do lists. While being a world class athlete can certainly avail for them a lot more than it would in the USA, this is not accomplished with the good of the athlete in mind, but rather the good of the state. They don't measure pride the way we do. The allegiance is a little twisted.

The problem with "...we have to not immediately assume the worst until the worst is confirmed." is that you are using the same yardstick for 2 political systems that don't exactly share the same set of moral values.

In the USA we highly value the integrity of the sport as well as the well-being of the athlete. Government agenda, the promotion of communist supremacy and virtue are of primary importance, everything else is either incidental or secondary.

I remember in 2009 how we all rather wanted to watch fast swimming. That wore out fast, and it is a good thing.
Submitted by: mario2007
November 21, 2010 i wouldn't call a country who sent criminal to Olympics "highly value the integrity of the sport as well as the well-being of the athlete".
Submitted by: zhaoleban
November 21, 2010 i agree "not by a long shot", but by a mile, consider Carl Lewis, Flo-jo, Marion Jones, LaShawn Merritt,Jerome Young,Justin Gatlin, Tim Montgomery, ..., the list goes on and on.

Lance Armstrong and his US Postal team are fast coming, ...

Don't forget half of MLB

If this is not sys
Submitted by: zhaoleban
November 21, 2010 Just look @the attitude the Chinese authorities are taking towareds their Nobel Peace Peize winner -- not recognizing his accomplsihmet and letting him rot in the slammer, notallowing his wife to attend the ceremony -- and what the rest of the world (for the most part) intends to do about the Oslo ceremony nxet montha -- and you get a goodidea of what th PRC government's attitude towrds "Human Rihts" is.

I's the GDR all over again onlyl this time with a capitalist face.

They got all those ex-GDR coaches/scientists over there after the Fall of the Wall 20 years go and they didn't bring 'em in for their good looks, if you catch my drift.

Were it not for the fact that the U.S. is equally culpable when it comes to egregious violations of "Human Rights" And were it not for a case of the pot calling the kettle black, I'd suggest a worldwide boycott of ALL Chinese-made goods(except Apple of course!) and a petition drive to force the IOC to kick China out of the Olympic Movement!

Hey, it workdd for South Africa.
Submitted by: slickwillie32
November 21, 2010 LOL, still think a country full of beggars has a moral grounds talking about human rights and can distate Olympics?
Submitted by: zhaoleban
November 21, 2010 Interesting reading:

He's not even training in china....
Submitted by: google7
November 21, 2010 Zhaoleban,

Half of the ones you mentioned have never been found guilty.

My point still stands: China does a lot of this across the board, regardless of sport.

The cases of Americans cheating has more to do with the greed incentive than the "you better take this drug because we want gold medalists to represent our great communist regime"
Submitted by: mario2007
November 21, 2010 Mario 2007's rite.

Americans and a Canadian (Ben Johnson, Jones, Montgomery et al.) who juiced @ the Olympics did so for personal gain/glory, not because there was any systematic doping regimen going on here by USA Track or other national federations.

But reallym what's the dif?

The GDR and the Chinese did/do it for the state,
we do it for the $$$.

Same deal.

Cheating is cheating.

Maybe if we all boycotted Wal-Mart/K-Mart and refused to buy any Chinese-made goods and if Jason would list ALL Chinese times done in Chinese pools in big red type/colors with an explanaton that we DON'T believe these times are legit that'd teach 'em to play by the rules!
Submitted by: slickwillie32
November 21, 2010 I am tired of hearing "Chinese Inhumane Communism versus American supreme Capitalism" again and again. Any more new, interesting and also horrifying stories coming out of communist China? Please be more creative.

@google7: He is training oversea, does not mean he is not training in China. It is just to split time between different spaces.
Submitted by: tim
November 21, 2010 I understand the weather's lovely this time of .
year in the "Worker's Paradise" (Cuba) and great vacations can be had on the cheap in Yangoon (Myanmar).

Perhaps Zaoleban can partake of the waters there and give us first-hand reports on democarcy in action.
Submitted by: slickwillie32
November 21, 2010 @slickwillie32:

If Jason was capable of having the influence on the foreign country China as you wish, he wouldn't have been working in a place such as Swimmingworldmagazine and doing dirty monitoring on our hilarious comments every single day, even on weekends!
Submitted by: tim
November 21, 2010 slickwillie, you're right - cheating is cheating. But it does make a fundamental difference when it happens because it's government sponsored rather than despite it.

tim, capitalism is NOT what makes America great, but we do like it. I'm with Reagan on communism - it's evil.
Submitted by: mario2007
November 21, 2010 mario2007...How can you POSSIBLY suggest thst Dutch was rite when he ssid the West is best?

I'm sure Chairman Mao, Che, Uncle Joe, Uncle Ho, Pol Pot, Fidielito, Raulito and the Myanmar generals would ALL beg to differ and take grave exception!
Submitted by: slickwillie32
November 21, 2010 I think we can all agree that cheating sucks, no matter the reason. My only real point is that in my opinion the Chinese, if cheating, are doing it because they want to, not because it's systematic and are being told by the government to do so. Now it IS a bigger problem if the govt / federation has knowledge and turns a blind eye here, which may be the case as the govt officials are the ones making out financially when an athlete succeeds.

I just know that there are a lot of top swimmers in China that ARE clean, and it's sad that when they succeed, they are lumped into the speculation caused by the ones that aren't...
Submitted by: Globalswim
November 21, 2010 @Globalswim: Your comments are standing out from those malicious and illogical comments. Even though this site allows, or can I say even encourages, any kind of vilification on the entire Chinese swimming/sport, I am glad that you and a few others are keeping saying the truth.

To whoever this can be applied to, feel free to become bitter everytime Chinese swimmers upset you and your favorites. A large population on this world will be happy about that, though they don't comment on this site or even know about it.

Submitted by: tim
November 21, 2010 A different perspective on China's swimming situation is offred below courtesy of Mark Morgan, Australia's 1978 Commonwealth Games 100 free gold-medalist and now a senior executive with the Carlile Swimming organizaton in suburban Sydney.

"As you [slickwillie32] would gather from my previous email, I completely agree with your views on the situation in China and agree with your thoughts re the Chinese. And it's not racism; it's their history, and the fact that their political system (like GDR) has the capacity to do this sort of thing on a systematic basis and even compel people to take part, or just not tell them. And also there is no doubt the same desire (as with GDR) to demonstrate through sport that their 'system' is best.

"I once read a great article on this that suggested that the doping was done on a provincial level because there was great rivalry between the provinces, not least for funding from the government. That was why so many of their breakthrough performances came at their National Games where funding was determined. That and the fact they could easily just bypass proper testing at a domestic level.

"I had similar experience to yours in '81 [@ European Championships] when I was at World Chps in Berlin in '78. Being around the Not-So-Frauleins in warm-up, I was amazed at their size and muscular development. I remember being pleased that I could swim significantly faster than them, because I thought most of them at least looked much stronger than I was."
Submitted by: slickwillie32
November 21, 2010 Good information, SW32. I agree with much of what Morgan says in that statement. And I DO believe that IF any doping occurs, it's probably would be more from the Provincial level than perhaps on the National level.

I remember seeing the Chinese team back in 1995 Pan-Pac's, and remember thinking I had never seen women as muscular and large as they were (I never saw the GDR women), but it definitely fit all the signs of drug use. I have seen all of the women now currently at the highest level in China, and there's no comparison. Again, not saying this isn't going on, I just don't see it physically.

Perspective from respected people is always good to hear, but it always helps to hear comments from someone familiar with the system and the culture as well (although those people are few and in-between, haha!)...

Submitted by: Globalswim
November 21, 2010 It's been more than a decade now but in mid'90s Mark's boss Forbes Carlile was in Chinafor quite a spell.

Forbsey's on vacation now but when he returnsI'll try to get him to offer some comments and that wll give a bfoader perspecve too.

He'd never do it as he's 89 years old and hehas a thriving swimmng enterprise in suburban Sydney but aguy like himwith no ax to grind oe wayorother who's seen and done it all would be perfect replacement for Schubert if Mark can't get reinstated.

Two guys who worked with Schubert @ Mission and elsewhere for more than 20 years and are excellent coches in their own right --Oregon State's Larry Liebowitz and Swim Pasadena's Terry Stoddard, who also coaces @ Pasadena City College -- strike me as viable candidates.

Or how about former USC coach Peter Daland, he of 10 NCAA Championship titles/innumerable Olympic champions fame?

John Naber? Spitz? Brian Goodell? Angel Myers-Martino if you're looking for a woman!!! Mary T.? Tracy (well she's Dwn Under and doubtful she'd want to come back.)

If it's REAL internatonal, "hands on" experience you're looking for in a U.S.Nationalteam 'bout Manfred Ewald/Dr. Lothar Kipke?

Afterall: "Zay only (ALWAYS?) followed zee orders."

Submitted by: slickwillie32
November 21, 2010 Globalswim,

I'm totally with you on your last 2 comments. I really don't think the problem is as bad as it used to be and I really believe the majority of Chinese swimmers are clean and that the sport has grown sufficiently over the last 30 years that they are truly seeing talent emerge out of the fires of legitimate, clean training and less reliant on "aids".
Submitted by: mario2007
April 15, 2011 With well over 1.3 billion people (over a billion more than the US) the probability of China not having a great swimmer or two would be nearly zero. With roughly 20 of the world's population, it seems ridiculous to say that they would need to dope to be competitive at the pinnacle of the swimming world.

I remember another 14 year old walking on the swim deck in Atlanta with a teddy bear but I doubt any of the steroid conspiracy theorists in this chain said a word about her efforts being drug tainted. AB has obviously gone on to prove herself as a world class swimmer in multiple olympics but never had to address issues of steroid abuse.

Has anyone actually seen a picture of Ye Shiwen? I have yet to see any picture where she looks juiced. Maybe not as scrawny as AB but far from the days of the massive Chinese girls of the 90s.

Instead of questioning Sun Yang's times why aren't we questioning David Nolan's performance? Is it impossible for a high schooler to beat those of the collegiate ranks? No. But how often does a 200 IMer drop an additional 2 seconds off of his National high school record?

Like Tim said, don't jump to conclusions and keep your suspicions and conspiracy theories to yourself until they are founded (that is... unless you have proof or at least some sort of vested interest in seeing a Chinese person fail).
Submitted by: breastroker599
April 15, 2011 As for Nolan, all I can say is that if took the same "vitamins" a certain other nation's swimmerse are reupted to consume he'd be putting Phelps to shame!

The GDR was never caught.

The Chinese have been caght"red-handed" on numerous occasions.

Nuff said.
Submitted by: slickwillie32
April 15, 2011 I bet if Camille Lacourt was Chinese, there would be tremendous doping accusations thrown in with his name. But since he's French, I haven't heard any.

Submitted by: john26
April 15, 2011 Slickwillie

I have read many of your posts and you are extremely knowledgeable about the sport of swimming. But does something that happened 15 years ago (before Ye Shiwen was even born) automatically make the Chinese guilty of doping? If the Chinese are making such a concerted effort to dope their swimmers then wouldn't they have had a much better showing in Beijing of all places? Did they even have a man medal in Beijing?

The fact that an individual can be judged so harshly for something their country did before they were born seems a bit unfair. Is it fair to automatically assume that a white american hangs African Americans from trees? Is it fair to assume that all Japanese kids torture and rape southeast asians? When you meet a German do you ask them when the last time they forced a Jew into a gas chamber?

It is past history and though I will be the first to harshly critique the Chinese for many outrageous policies, systematic doping seems far from their agenda.

Again, let the future tell the story and please don't jump to unfair conclusions.
Submitted by: breastroker599
April 15, 2011 breastroker, i find those comparisons unfair and very offensive. In beijing, china was ranked 7th (which included Zhang Lin's silver medal). the following year, in rome, they were ranked 3rd in swimming. this summer, they are probably america's biggest threat in terms of swimming. they are rising very fast.

botton line, some of us do not trust the government for good reason. do you trust them? every day the chinese attempts to hack the department of defense computers. they hack other governments computers. they stole our design for the f-22. didn't our CIA (or FBI) director say America's biggest threat are the Chinese? the chinese perceive us as a weak nation. the chinese will do whatever it takes. even if it is systematic doping. that is what separates us from the chinese. they don't care. they will do whatever is necessary to get on top. if you trust the chinese, then you are a fool.

Also, i did mention how odd it was for a 25-year-old backstroke swimmer to come out of no where and almost break Peirsol's record. i guess you were not here.

Submitted by: philipmj24
April 15, 2011 John
Yes there have been questions about the French. However I noted to myself a few years ago how France was quite deep in the 17-19 year old male mid distance ranks similar to the Southport Brit program results.

There is still the identity of the unnamed team hiding in the Bulgarian backcountry. Russia ? France ?Netherlands ?

Breastroker - The Nuremburg Trials , Emperor Hirahito the FBI
Submitted by: Mae West
April 15, 2011 cont...

The Stasi files & testimony from DDR swimmers aid in reconciling these evils.

China is nowhere there yet. An apology might help.

Submitted by: Mae West
April 15, 2011 I agree with Phillpmj24 and Mae West. Breaststroker 559 I don't think the analogies you gave were apt or relevant. China has made improvements, but not enough for me to fully trust them yet; as Mae West alluded to, their response to their doping scandals pales in comparison to the Germany's post-reunification response. This is a government that even censors general internet data both going into and out of the country, to the extent that our national security professionals consider the world to have, in some ways, virtually 2 separate internets now: The world-wide one that we're all on here, and China's.

I don't see evidence for systematic doping, (though it wouldn't surprise me). But if there were isolated swimmers or groups of a particular team's swimmers who tested positive, I could see them limiting what information becomes public and is reported to FINA, reporting just enough swimmers tested postive to make it look like they are cooperating. It's a shame that they haven't been more transparent, because it is likely that many innocent swimmers go under suspicion unnecessarily. I hate having nagging questions in the back of my mind about such swimmers but unfortunately their government has not earned our full trust yet.

Mae West, what was this about the Bulgarian backcountry? First I'd heard anything about that. Thanks.
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 15, 2011
Somebody respected threw that out to fly in the wind. The reference was a top line european country. I once sat next to a Bulgarian hurdler in the steroided 80s. She was very attractive
Submitted by: mae west
April 16, 2011 breastroker,

Several things about your last post.

First, the Chinese are like the East Germans of old who systematically doped their athletes pretty much across the board and damned be the consequences to the athletes themselves. One of the beautiful selling points of communism - glory to the state and there isn't much that will stop them from achieving it.

Second of all, and taking the aforementioned in mind, as evil as that motivation may be, it does not begin to approach the evil of mass genocide and the other examples are not due to state sponsored and approved measures.

Third of all, and I think most importantly, in a country like China, doping is not something the athlete can control or has a say in. They get in line or they're overlooked altogether.

Finally, if you look at the history of the effects of doping, especially with regards to swimming (see East Germany) - the men never benefited to the degree that the women did. It was the East German women's swim team that was the swimming powerhouse, not the men's team. Same story with China, for the most part.

***This is not to say that there are not clean Chinese swimmers who are truly talented world class athletes achieving results the good old fashioned way - they truly earn it.***

But the seed of mistrust has long and oft been sown.
Submitted by: mario2007
April 25, 2011 I guess we must be living in Communist China because it appears that "innocent until proven guilty" does not apply to swimmers of this era.

Americans were very upset (myself included) when Lance Armstrong's feats were continually called into question because of his remarkable performances. Yet this is the same treatment that these young Chinese swimmers are experiencing.

And btw... my parallels were not nearly as far-fetched as some of you made them out to be as lack of trust caused Americans to jump to conclusions and intern innocent Japanese-Americans who had no connection to Hirohito or the "Evil Japanese Empire!" History has shown that those with small eyes were stripped of their homes, property and other belongings because we, the rest of American society, "suspected" the Japanese Americans of being part of Hirohito's plan to dominate the world.
Submitted by: breastroker599
April 25, 2011 I find it amusing that of all these posts no one seems to think that CURRENT U.S. swimmers are doping. Why? because they are being tested? Give me a break. Everyone knows that there are drugs being used that are not showing up on tests. HGH is one example. We have dominated international swimming for years yet everyone wants to blame China because they have had some recent success. There are plenty of suspicious Americans out there.
Submitted by: cupofjoe
April 25, 2011 breastroker599, cupofjoe,

It is AMAZING to me that anyone could compare America's success in swimming to that of China's. First of all, the level of access to swimming pools
Submitted by: mario2007
April 25, 2011 breastroker, Armstrong paid the price for being in a sport which didn't police its doping well enough across the board. Even some of his biggest fans ended up suspecting him. And don't get hysterical; even after the Chinese doping scandals in the 90's were revealed, nobody is advocating for Chinese-Americans; including several recent swimmers on the U.S. National team, to be interned in camps! Even with the Chinese kicking our butts in the economic wars, Chinese-Americans continue to integrate well into our society.

Cupofjoe; you raise an important point about drugs that aren't tested for. It's possible that there are isolated Americans, as well as swimmers from other countries doping undetected. However, nobody is suspecting Chinese doping solely because of their recent success; it's because twice in the 90's their "successes" turned out to be due to widespread, if not systematic, doping. And as many on here have pointed out, it's harder for Americans to go undetected because our level of transparency is so high in terms of reporting times of swimmers starting from ages 9 and 10 and their progression can be monitored throughout their childhood/adolescence/early adulthood, unlike the Chinese, where elite level swimmers can appear suddenly and disappear just as suddenly, raising suspicion, perhaps unnecessarily, but that it their M.O.
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 25, 2011 Liquidassets,
your final point is similar to mine: "I am sorry to say that I don´t recognize most of these names...".

Submitted by: nadador
April 25, 2011 I don't think that anyone believes there is systematic doping in the U.S. but since the advent of professional swimming the temptation to cheat is no doubt prevalent here. In all professional sports athletes are trying to get an edge, legal or otherwise. And the fact that it is not systematic does not necessarily make it any less prevalent. Baseball and football are great examples. I don't believe it is sytematic but a huge percentage of the players are doing it. In many ways it may be more unethical if it is not sytematic. At least in China the athletes probably aren't the ones that are cheating. Their coaches are. We've all heard rumors about many of the top American swimmers. Our recent domination would seem to indicate that Americans are the MOST likely to be guilty.
Submitted by: cupofjoe
April 25, 2011 Looks like we're back to full throttle doping allegations again. I don't remember any of this during the "suit" era. The real winners were the ones doping AND wearing the suits. And you can bet it was going on.
Submitted by: cupofjoe
April 25, 2011 cupofjoe: RECENT domination? We've dominated swimming more often than not since it started, we don't have a few years of sudden improvement and then fade again on and off. In fact the only time in my lifetime that we didn't more or less dominate or be very close was was when the East German women were doping in the 70's and early 80's, and to a lesser extent the Chinese women doping in the 90's. Unless you think that US has been doping since early 1900's, your argument doesn't hold water there. There's no evidence to suggest US swimming doping is prevalent like in baseball. I don't know why there aren't more positive tests in football they're probably afraid to test too often. Although there are drugs that aren't tested for, I read that swimmers like Dara Torres are having specimens frozen to be tested in the future. I haven't heard any widespread rumors about anybody other than that. And I also don't see that allegations are full throttle; suspicion waxes and wanes and is moderate but there have been very few specific allegations.
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 26, 2011 liquidass: OK, DOMINATION. And you probably think Lance Armstrong is clean. You say there is no evidence that US swimmers have been doping but you presume the Chinese are doping without any evidence. Sounds like blind patriotism to me. And it's unfair to use past Chinese swimmers as evidence. There have been Americans that have tested positive (Angel Meyer, Jessica Hardy, Kicker Vencel). Of course all Americans claim innocence when they are caught. Again, lack of a systematic doping program does not mean no doping.
Submitted by: cupofjoe
April 26, 2011 It was Angel Myers' birth control pills, someone spiked Kicker Vencil's Gatorade (and did same for that female distance freestyler who swam for Sanford in early '90s), it was the Devil Incarnate who put that stuff in Jessica Hardy's sports drink/bar or whatever it is was she consumed and Lance just happened to consume some tainted beef.

You CAN'T equate American swimmers who NEVER are guilty with them "furriners" who are state-sponsored juiced.

Hey, we run a clean ship here in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

Just ask us.
Submitted by: slickwillie32
April 26, 2011 Sometimes it is hard to tell if SW is being serious or just being himself.
Submitted by: aswimfan
April 26, 2011 cupofjoe: Please read my posts more carefully; they're much more nuanced than you potray me. And Willie, you mindlessly picked up on his distortions and ran with it. I know it takes a little more effort to be thoughtful and discilplined, but pls try to be a little less black and white in your thinking, guys. I never implied that Armstrong was innocent. Most of my serious cyclist friends think he is not and I have lingering suspicions about him myself. I didn't say there is no evidence for U.S. doping, I said there's no evidence that doping is prevalent in U.S. swimming. I never said "no doping", and I've already agreed with your statement that no systematic doping doesn't mean no doping. And I don't presume the Chinese are doping, though like many on here, at times I have suspicions and question their protocols and transparency. That's very different than a presumption, which is much more definitive. Unlike the Germans, China Swimming never had the official exposure and response to their scandals that Germany did, and their behavioral patterns continue, so it is only natural to be suspicious, especially since it was only a little over a decade ago.

Chinese swimmers didn't plead innocent because swimmers and coaches were caught with vials of HGH in their bags, far different than the circumstances of the swimmers that Willie mentioned. I don't know what to think of most of those; the only one I'm very familiar with is Hardy, her story sounded convincing to both me and the panel who made the decision. Tainted supplements are a reality and have proven to be so. I think Hardy was guilty of being stupid and she paid a high price. It's still not clear whether she'll be able to swim in the Olympics yet. Those positive tests are a reminder to me that U.S. doping could well be occurring as well; although the only one who strongly fits a possible pattern, and who I've heard has been strongly suspected, Dara Torres, is being very aggressive in her transparency and other measures to ensure her innocence, a far cry from the anonymity and less frequent testing of the Chinese swimmers. What more could you ask from someone like her?
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 26, 2011 liquid: None of your responses account for the fact that many of the illegal drugs that athletes are using are not being tested for. Torres, and others, could protest to til the cows come home that she is clean and if she is using something not tested she will test clean. I agree that the Chinese are very suspicious. My only point is that you seem to want to give a pass to American swimmers.
Submitted by: cupofjoe
April 26, 2011 Ah ok. No pass, it's just a different degree of suspicion, the same level I have for all other countries besides China. As I said, I believe Torres is, or is investigating, having samples frozen so that they can be somehow tested in the future for drugs that are currently not tested for. I don't hear anyone else talking about that. She could be doping, but that and her transparency about all her supplements (and obsessiveness about having them tested) seems to make it less likely.
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 26, 2011 liquid: Your example of Torres is weak. If she is using a drug not tested for (remember, she had a Canadian doctor suspected of peddling steroids)
all her public posturing about transparancy and supplements being tested means nothing. I have no idea if she is using anything illegal but her as you call it "obsessiveness about being tested" means nothing to me. It may look good to her adoring public but that's about it.
Submitted by: cupofjoe
April 26, 2011 No I meant obsessive about having her supplements tested.
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 27, 2011 How do we KNOW that the greatest swimmer to ever don a Speedo is legit?

How do we KNOW that USS, USADA, WADA, FINA and the IOC itself aren't ALL on the take?

The guy's been on top for a decade now.

Nobody's ever lasted that long continuously.

Shouldn't that raise some red flags/suspicions ESPECIALLY after what happened to him following Athens (DUI) and Beijing (the pipe)?

I don't believe for a minute that Michael Phelps has EVER ingested peds knowingly or unknowingly but we've been accusing so many others...y not him too?

That would make the Ben Johnson scandal seem like a Sunday school picnic!
Submitted by: slickwillie32
April 27, 2011 cupofjoe: So Torres frozen samples for future testing doesn't impress you? Also the greed motivation argument holds less water for her compared with other athletes, given that she is from a very wealthy family to begin with; her father owned Aladdin casinos and others in Vegas. I remember that as a young teenager, in her first Olympics at age 16, there was alot of jealousy directed toward her for being wealthy, attractive, and supremely athletically talented. I still think that's a factor nowadays.
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 27, 2011 liquid: I don't want this to turn into a bash Dara Torres post. What I wrote was a response to your defense of her. You have gotten off our original point that you hold the Chinese to a higher standard of proof than the Americans. And no, I am not impressed with her frozen samples. That's a crock.
Submitted by: cupofjoe
April 27, 2011 Well you say you don't want to turn it into bash Torres, yet you continue your argument with the unsupported statement "that's a crock". As for the original point, no, I hold the Chinese to the same standard of testing and transparency. Because of their odd behavioral patterns and recent doping scandals, it is hard to know what to think they are doing over there, so periodically, suspicions are higher for them than USA and all other countries. It's very simple. And if there was a 44 y.o. Chinese swimmer doing the times Torres was, I'd want her to be doing exactly what Torres is doing to protect her reputation, only the Chinese aren't doing any of that for any of their swimmers.
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 27, 2011 What "recent" doping scandals are you referring to?
Submitted by: globalswim
April 27, 2011 The mid to late 90's. That's only 3 Olympic cycles ago. As I've said before, they've made some improvements since then, just not enough to match the rest of the world.
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 27, 2011 Ok, I don't call that too recent, but know what you mean. I def think the recent improvements are due in part by them getting coached by international coaches...
Submitted by: globalswim
April 27, 2011
One of the funniest memories of the 90s is the footage of Ma's Army. It was hilarious . A whole crowd of women running behind a motorcycle with a fat Ma astride -
Submitted by: Mae West
April 27, 2011 LOL Oh yeah the track and field fiasco that was even more ridiculous. I remember him making the women run full marathons in the middle of the night while he yelled and harrassed them blowing smoke in their face while smoking, from his motorcycle/motorcades. I felt bad for those women even as they were running 29 minute 10K's. But the Chinese swimmers faced some of the same conditions in the 90's: Not allowed to wear makeup, absolutely no boyfriends, mandatory living apart from their families, etc. Oh yeah, and the drugs.
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 27, 2011 My two cents: there is no virgin at the w**house!
The Germans did it (we all know). The Russians did it (I know). The Chinese did it (we all know).

There remains to be determined: WHO (not country) is doing it!

Cole Porter, anyone? "And that's why birds do it, bees do it. Even educated fleas do it...
Let's do it, let's fall in love"
Submitted by: nadador
April 27, 2011 Im not impressed with frozen sample as well.
who knows when the sample is collected, etc.
It's indeed a crock.
Submitted by: aswimfan
April 27, 2011 The samples are collected and submitted by the same folks who collect the regular testing. Torres initiated it with them.
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 28, 2011 LiquidAssets. Sounds nice but Torres would have to pay for sampling transport storage clinical supervision & certification regimes & have strict access tampering strategies.

Submitted by: Mae West
April 28, 2011 Well she's gotta be a millionaire by now but not sure what you meant by strict access tampering strategies? (or did I miss a joke? :-))
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 29, 2011 nobody hands over samples without sureties. Who is the legal owner of such a donation ? Does she have her own little shelf in the fidge.? I call bs.
Submitted by: Mae West
April 29, 2011 Hmm could be, I see your point..and raises a good question; who are the owners of everyone's routine samples?
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 29, 2011 My final word on this: It all really comes down to whether you beleive an athlete is clean because they have not tested positive (and some believe it's still not their fault)or you are skeptical based on a number of factors. No doubt an athlete cannot be punished until they test positive. However it is not our job to prove the guilt or innocence of an athlete. We can use any and all information we feel appropriate. I tend to fall in the camp that believes that there are many athletes cheating because they can. If you beleive in the innocence of athletes until they are proven guilty that's your perogative. But I think it is healthy to doubt their innocence and look for signs that cheating is going on. This is how we ultimately got drug testing. I said in an earlier blog that we are back to suspecting drug cheats now that the suit controversy is over. I believe that the suits covered up the drug problem for a while. Just like lactate testing explained results we didn't comprehend. I just think that those of you that are hammering Chinese athletes need to look at the rest of the world with the same skepticism.
Submitted by: cupofjoe
April 29, 2011 Finally, a voice of reason. Thanks joe.
Submitted by: paddles
April 29, 2011 Yes I agree with paddles that is reasonable, cupofjoe; I think our only real disagreement is the last sentence, that for me personally, I will be putting my degree of skepticism just a notch higher for the Chinese until their level of transparency matches the rest of the world (which I agree with you is also not adequate to catch everyone else either). I also know that Germany didn't change after their scandal until a collapse of their government led to the necessary transparency and changes. Since this is obviously unlikely to happen in China in the forseeable future it will take them a bit longer for me to trust them; their recent changes in the last decade have narrowed the gap considerably and hopefully it will continue to narrow.
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 29, 2011
Actually I have no problems with Dara. I have known of her racing /training since she was about 13. Once a sprint talent always a sprint talent.
It is the ROBO look that some of the Chinese have that is at one new to the eye but also recognisable. I will have to wait till all the comps are not in Cina to make further opinion . Just like the Austrian paraphernalia easily hiked over to Turin -hometown advantages many strategies.
Submitted by: Mae West
April 29, 2011 Mae West, another point about Torres is that at the time she should have been starting to peak, she was suffering from a severe eating disorder which profoundly affected her training and fitness; this at least in part explains her unusual pattern and longevity as she began imrproving more after she got successful psychiatric/psychological treatment . How would you describe this Robo look you have observed, do you mean solely their physical appearance or in their swimming technique/mannerisms? Thanks.

All I have noticed recently some amazing backhalf splits on some swims of 200 meters and over, a bit more suspicious than usual, but also nothing so extreme or widespread enough that couldn't also yet be explained by superior coaching, genes, sports science, technique and/or level of fitness, though it does warrant a little extra attention and monitoring. I had originally wondered the same about Phelps with his amazing backhalfing, until I heard explanations from sports physicists, coaches, and psychologists explaining his unique body, technique mindset, and relationship with his coach. The explanations were sufficient to convince me more or less that he was clean. Putting aside the question of doping for a minute, Bowman basically did on a micro level what the East Germans and Chinese successfully did in the past, in terms of early identification of the unique talent, engaging the family in the process of buying in to the pursuit of greatness early on, behavioral psychological techniques, and frequent scientific testing.
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 29, 2011 If Dara's been on the sauce the last few years (and in late nineties too) how come she hasn't won the gold?

Maybe she should find mas effective "supplements" if she intends to win @ London!

Submitted by: slickwillie32
April 29, 2011 apart from the drug/supplement, I think what drives her: knowing she would likely have won at least one individual gold if she was healthy and competing when she was in her 20's, and she's still chasing that as well as curious how far she can push it, age wise, charting new frontiers/limits.
Submitted by: liquidassets
April 30, 2011 Dara almost won gold in Beijing if not for that pesky 0.01 second.

Don't forget also that Dara swam the fastest ever 100 split in history (52.27) anchoring the 400 MR!
Submitted by: aswimfan
April 30, 2011 THe day I see the Chinese swimmers tell their their coaches to F off & enjoy their overseas trips is when the Chinese will lose the Robo.
Minders everywhere .I suspect Zhige is borderline rebellious hence the cancelled trips. There are a handfulof Chinese divers & gymnasts whose successes have allowed a bargaining hand. eg Li Ning Fu Mingxia Gao jing. Others are pulled off national teams . They lost the 10m Athens gold by pulling a naughty Li na.
I saw the DDR girls laugh into their coaches faces when they wanted them to train 3 x a day instead of some sightseeing & fun. It was 87 & i knew the DDR citizens had thrown off the yoke.
Submitted by: Mae West
April 30, 2011 THe day I see the Chinese swimmers tell their their coaches to F off & enjoy their overseas trips is when the Chinese will lose the Robo.

I'm not sure you can compare this regard to the east german swimmers. The communist block was known as "iron curtain" not for nothing. It was almost impossible for them to travel abroad if not being on the national sports team etc, so the chance where they could enjoy foreign trips were rare and luxurious.
In contrast, the chinese are much more free to travel abroad, in fact, chinese tourists are developing to become the biggest tourists source in many asian and even european countries.
And I'm sure the current chinese sports teams are not operating like the 80s east german where they forbid their swimmers from even occasional fun at the city.
I cannot imagine Liu Zhige, Sun Yang or Zhang Lin forbidden by their coaches from going out in town occasionally while they are training in Australia for months!
Submitted by: aswimfan
April 30, 2011 Aswim . These athlete placements are very heavily monitored . They are also magnets for ex PRC groups. It is a jungle out there! A conversion to Falun Gong or being groomed for a Political asylum move is the PRC's big nightmare. Therefore much swimming & not much fun.
Submitted by: Mae West
April 30, 2011 The DDR, the Chinese and the Russian were monitored. There was an "attaché" (KGB) with them all the time. In 95 (?), in a WC in Rio, we stayed at the same hotel, and I saw the "attaché" guy force the Russians to stay in their rooms, while everybody else was at least in the hotel lobby.

The Robo look? Huge, Round, featureless, biceps as big as legs. Worst: no technique, no DPS: 40 stroke each lap (SCM) - ok, I am exaggerating, but just a tad..

And I was personally friend to some Russian swimmers at the time, who said they knew they were being doped, and subjected to it knowingly, because they would get home, health care, money, travel.... even the "Tzar" was said to be juiced.

If you were paying attention at the time the "curtain" fell, there was an evasion of Russian coaches and athletes to countries around the world, and it took them one to two years to swim their prior best time again.
Submitted by: nadador
April 30, 2011 Komaraden Salnikovskaya on the sauce?

Say it AIN'T so, coaches Sergei V. and Igor K.

And here I always thought it was those long, lonely Leningrad winters that drove him!

When the Russians (pardon, USSR) swam the U.S. in a dual-meet @ Knoxville in summer of 1982 after Guayaquil in conjunction with the World's Fair, they engaged in same activities (sight-seeing, going to arcades @ fair, etc.) U.S. team did for the most part and I didn't notice any Gestapo/KGB minders around.

Not that there couldn't have been/weren't...they were just too subtle for my untrained eye I guess.

Submitted by: slickwillie32
April 30, 2011
In 2009 the PRC tried to ban a film in Australia! There are no lengths they will not attempt unless given the finger.

Submitted by: Mae West
April 30, 2011 I don't think the Soviets were juiced. Their women were never that successful, especially when compared to the GDR. Paradoxically, it was the men that were more competitive overall (think Salnikov, Popov, and the 200-400 Fr champ - Sadovyi - at the 92 Olympics from the Unified Team), but hardly dominant like the US swimmers. Russian and Ukrainian men continue to be players in international swimming to this day. This is not meant to be a political statement of any sort, only an observation.
Submitted by: Chile
Reaction Time responses do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions
of Swimming World Magazine or

Reaction Time is provided as a service to our readers.
Purchase a 30 Day Premium Membership for only $4.95

Reaction Time Login
Submit Your Comments to This Story (Free)
Don't have a Reaction Time Account?
Click here
and setup your free account now!

Screen Name:

Forgot Screen Name or Password?
Click here
and we will email it to you.

Comments: (All comments will be reviewed by our Editors)


Special Offer!