Guest editorial by John Craig
PHOENIX, Arizona, September 7. THE recent analysis on this site about the second-best all-around male swimmer of all time raises the question regarding the best all-around female swimmer.
As with the men, this is not a discussion about the greatest woman swimmer, but merely the best all-around swimmer. The criteria are the same: Olympic glory will be counted, but not given primacy. Rather, the emphasis will be on how many strokes and what range of distances the swimmer was world class at, her longevity, the number of records she broke, and how much difference there was between her events.
Thus swimmers such as Dawn Fraser and Mary T. Meagher, who are on everyone's short list of the all-time greats, are not under consideration for this title, simply because they were specialists. This article will also disregard swimmers from the first half of the 20th century, since comparisons to that era are more difficult. Otherwise, Helene Madison and Ragnhild Hveger likely would have been included.
Likewise, women who were later found to have been doped will not be considered. Thus Kornelia Ender, Petra Schneider, and Kristin Otto, all of whom would otherwise have been contenders, are excluded. (One point worth making here simply because it isn't often made is that none of those three were morally culpable in the least. Unlike, say, a Michelle Smith, these girls were doped with neither their knowledge nor consent. Any anger on behalf of those whom they deprived of medals should be directed at their doctors and trainers.)
The candidates include Donna de Varona, Shane Gould, Tracy Caulkins, Krisztina Egerszegi, Yana Klochkova, Laure Manaudou and Natalie Coughlin.
De Varona held both IM world records from the early to mid-60's, and won the 400 IM at the 1964 Olympics (there was no 200 IM at the Tokyo Games). She was also a member of the US's victorious 4 x 100 free relay in Tokyo. She retired after the '64 Games simply because that was what women did back then, since there were no college scholarships available for women at the time. De Varona is not a prime contender for this title, but her versatility she is the rare 400 IMer who was also an excellent sprinter makes her worth mentioning.
Australian Shane Gould, as a 15 year old in 1971, simultaneously held every single freestyle world record from 100 meters to 1500 meters. This had never been done before, and hasn't been done since. Some press reports at the time said that she was the first woman to set every freestyle record, which actually wasn't true: Helene Madison had done it back in the early 1930's. But no woman since Gould has been able to set world records from 100 to 400 meters, or from 200 to 1500 meters. She won gold medals at the 1972 Munich Olympics in the 200 and 400 freestyles and the 200 IM, all in WR time. She also won bronze in the 100 free and silver in the 800 free. Gould undoubtedly ran into the Spitz/Phelps problem at those Games: there was only one of her. (She may have been spread too thin as it was.) Beside the five events she tackled, she would also have been competitive in both butterflies and the 400 IM. Gould was uncomfortable in the spotlight, and retired shortly after Munich. But before she retired, she etched her place in swimming history memorably.
Tracy Caulkins is best known for having set either world or American records in all four individual strokes (as well as the IM). This, too, had never been done before, and hasn't been done since. By the time she was finished, she had set five world records (including a pre-Meagher WR in the 200 fly) and a mind-boggling 63 American records. It's hard to say how many world records Caulkins would have set had it not been for the juiced up East Germans. It wouldn't have been close to the number of American records she set, but it certainly would have been more than the five that she got. She was well ahead of her time, swimming a 400 meter IM in 4:40.8 in 1978 (back when the rules stipulated a hand touch in backstroke and no submerging of the head in breaststroke, and swimmers hadn't yet discovered the underwater dolphin). Caulkins won both IMs at the Los Angeles Olympics in 1984. Those two gold medals seem almost like afterthoughts after her prodigious spate of record-setting.
Krisztina Egerszegi is one of only two swimmers (the other is Dawn Fraser) to have won the same event at three successive Olympiads: she won the 200 back in '88,'92, and '96. She also won the 100 back and 400 IM in '92, making her the only female swimmer to ever win a 100 and 400 at the same Olympiad. (Two males have done it, Don Schollander in '64 and Michael Phelps, in both '04 and '08.) Egerszegi also won silver in the 100 back in '88 and bronze in the 400 IM in '96. She set world records in both backstrokes; her 200 record lasted until 2008. She was versatile, and demonstrated longevity both in her own career and in the lifespan of her world record (which has yet to be beaten in a textile suit).
The next swimmer on the list, Yana Klochkova, won both IMs in 2000 and 2004. She is the only woman swimmer to have ever won an Olympic double-double. But she is more than the female Tamas Darnyi: in 2000 she also won the silver medal in the 800 free, and at the World championships in Fukuoka in 2001 she won the 400 free title. Her world record in the 400 IM lasted from 2000 until 2007. Klochkova has to be considered one of the two greatest female IMers of all time. (Tracy Caulkins would undoubtedly have won both IMs in 1980 as well as 1984 had the U.S. not boycotted and had the East Germans not seen fit to dope their swimmers.)
Laure Manaudou was tremendously versatile but didn't quite seem to realize her full potential. At the Melbourne World championships in '07, she won the 200 and 400 freestyles, and also won silver in both the 100 back and 800 free, becoming the second woman (after Gould) to medal on a major stage at that range of distances. She set WRs in both the 200 and 400 free. But after Melbourne, her life unraveled. We all remember the highly publicized splits with various coaches and boyfriends and the general disorganization of her life in the year leading up to the 2008 Olympics. (Most of us get to be young and naive in private; Laure was never afforded that luxury.) She was also treated as a rock star in France during that period. None of this helped her training schedule. By the time Beijing rolled around, she was a shadow of the athlete she had been the year before, so her Olympic gold is confined to the 400 free title she won in Athens. She didn't accomplish enough to seriously contend for the title of best all-around. But at one point in time she was as versatile and talented as just about anybody.
(Note to Laure: it's not too late to make a comeback. You're only 23, no one has beaten your 400 record in textile, and look at what Amanda Beard has done after motherhood.)
The final candidate is Natalie Coughlin, whose inclusion is based partly on what she has done in short course yards competition. International comparisons should probably not take yards times into account, but if you're going to talk about all-around ability, it's impossible not to mention Coughlin. At one point, she simultaneously held the American records in the 50, 100, and 200 yard freestyles, the 100 and 200 back, and the 100 and 200 fly. She has swum an early season 500 free in 4:37, at a point when the AR was 4:33+; she might have gotten that record had she ever made a serious run at it. When she was in high school she qualified for senior nationals in the 100 breast with a 1:02+, so she obviously could have gotten both IM records had she gone for those as well. Long course she has two individual Olympic gold medals to her credit, both in the 100 back, as well as five world records in that event. At the Athens Olympics, she also won a bronze in the 100 free, and her leadoff leg of the 4 x 200 relay would have won the gold in the individual 200 free as well. In Beijing, she also won bronzes in the 100 free and 200 IM. Her biggest advantage as a swimmer is her underwater dolphin, so she is not as dominant long course as she is short course; but her absolute mastery of three strokes merits mention here.
The women's picture is, unfortunately, a little murkier than the men's, since a fair analysis must take into account circumstance. For instance, it was not de Varona's fault that there were no resources available for her to keep swimming past her teenage years. And it was not Caulkins' fault that the U.S. boycotted in 1980, or that she was swimming against the steroided East German women.
If you do take into account circumstance, and take a glance at yards times, the crown for best all-around female swimmer goes to Tracy Caulkins, who set records in all four strokes. If you don't make these allowances, then it goes to Shane Gould, who simultaneously held every freestyle record. Both women did things which had never been done before, and in all likelihood will never be done again.
It's hard to choose between these two. It'd be nice to call it a tie; but that would be a little bit of a cop-out. So who wins?
While yards times shouldn't be taken into account when comparing American with foreign swimmers, it's still safe to say that no other swimmer in the world has ever been at American record-level in all four strokes. And since juiced competition and an Olympic boycott should be taken into account, this fan calls it for Caulkins.
Thanks to Bob Seltzer and Skip Thompson for help with this article.
John Craig's (nonswimming) blog is justnotsaid.blogspot.com
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September 7, 2010 Tracy Caulkins Submitted by: mario2007
September 7, 2010 All excellent female swimmers but my vote goes to Shane Gould. Accomplishing this at 15 years of age is pretty remarkable. I reflect on my own 15 year-old daughter, and it makes the feat even more amazing. Certainly no points for speculating, but I believe Shane could have even accomplished more. Interesting though that Shane has commented that she believes that no one under 18 should be allowed to compete in the Olympics. Given her own story and that of many other young women who have been pushed into competition, it's no wonder she feels that way. Submitted by: stu
September 7, 2010 Excellent article! Loved it! As much as I want to go with Tracy, I still have to go with Shane. Most of Tracy's accomplishments were done in U.S. yards.....48 national titles is hard to ignore with a boat load of American records to boot. But when counting world records and complete dominance, that goes to Shane. I really don't want to play the "what if" card because of the boycott and East Germans. Granted, without the East Germans, Tracy would have been a one woman wrecking machine internationally.....Whereas Shane WAS the most respected and feared female athlete in the pool. When your competitors wear a t-shirt proclaiming your dominance, the famous "ALL THAT GLITTERS IS NOT GOULD" shirt, that says a lot. It is dominance. But every one of the women listed above in the article are phenomenal and each deserves the title as great.
How about co-holders of "Greatest" title? They both have first names that everyone recognizes because of their accomplishments. Submitted by: paddles
September 7, 2010 Ok, so let's say we take out the "all-around" moniker. Then pit Dawn Fraser against Caulkins. Who do you like then? Fraser may have been a specialist, but she was a REALLY good specialist.
You also have to wonder if, in the modern age, a Dawn Fraser would have swum another stroke and been good at it. I've gotta imagine yes. It didn't take much for Monaudou to get credit for being "versatile," afterall... Submitted by: GigEmAggies
September 7, 2010 You have forgotten how versatile and outstanding Claudia Kolb was in the mid-60's. On the 1964 and 68 Olympic teams, no college programs were offered at that time. She held records in all four strokes, as I recall. She would compare favorabley with Tracy Caulkins in her era. Submitted by: stephswim1
September 7, 2010 Claudia never really hit her peak in the 400 I.M. By Munich, she could have very well been the first female under five minutes if she had continued on past Mexico City's Olympic Games. Different times.......not continuing on because it just wasn't done (so to speak). Submitted by: paddles
September 7, 2010 Caulkins....Caulkins....Caulkins. Although she is credited with five world records, she also set several in SCM format when those were considered "World Best" times. Back in 1981, she won the 100 back, 100 breast and both IMs in World Best times at the international meet, which would add to her WR tally had those been counted as WRs as they are now. Not to mention how many more LCM WRs she was denied due to the GDR. Her versatility is unsurpassed. Just one man's opinion. Great article - thanks. Submitted by: jqdone
September 7, 2010 I have to go with Shane Gould first, and Caulkins close second.
If we are to speculate "what if the east germans didnt juice up", then we also have to speculate "what if Gould continued swimming past 16 yo".
Gould's Munich is the single greatest olympic performance by a female swimmer, far surpassed Caulkins (even in watered down Los Angeles where no east german/russian/hungarians swimmers competed) Submitted by: aswimfan
September 7, 2010 Caulkins. Submitted by: flutterby
September 7, 2010 Gould won three individual gold medals in Munich. The 200/400 frees and the 200IM. A worthy performance but hardly Phelpsian let alone Spitzian. Evans won the 400/800 frees and the 400IM in 1988. Four years later Egerszegi won both backs and the 400IM. The womens side of the ledger has never had an Olympic Games equivalent performance to Phelps or Spitz. Until the curtain of deceit came down on the GDR the nod had gone to Otto who won four individual golds in three separate disciplines. Nonetheless that Gould could medal from 100 to 800 is impressive. I would have Gould over Caulkins if we're looking at "best all around" swimmer. Interestingly though I would have both Fraser and Egerszegi (and perhaps a few others?) above her if we were ranking the swimmers in terms of the best ever with no qualifications. Much of that is due to their longevity and the way they dominated. Gould really only dominated the 400 free. She always had competitors near her times in the other events. WRs fell like raindrops back in that transitional era. She often traded records with other swimmers and none of her WRs lasted long. The WR in her best event the 400 fell the very next year to Keena Rothhammer the woman that defeated her in the 800 in Munich.
Gould's strength to me is not her versatility for other disciplines but her propensity at different distances much like Ian Thorpe, who also was accomplished from 100 to 800 and could throw in a world class IM. But swimmers crossing over to the IM does not quite equate to supreme versatility in the way that the multi discipline performances do for a Phelps, a Cseh, a Lochte, a Coughlin, a Manaudou, or even maybe now someone like Seebohm. These swimmers have the ability to stretch beyond just exploring IMs aside from their stroke of preference. Swimmers with one very dominant stroke that are proficient enough in breaststroke that they don't lose too much ground can excel in the IMs. Gould didn't introduce the notion of crossing over to the IMs. It was never the exclusive domain of IM specialists. Keep in mind the IMs were not Olympic events until 1964. The 200IM was not introduced until 1968. Look at the 200IM medalists from 1968. The silver and bronze swimmers in this event Henne and Pedersen also went 1-2 in the 100 free with Henne also adding a silver in the 200 free. On the men's side in the 60s Roy Saari held the world record in the 1500 free and later won a silver in the 400IM. Charles Hickox was a world class backstroker and IMer and won Olympic medals in both in 1968.
I think another American swimmer deserves to be in the conversation with athletes like Gould, Caulkins, and Egerszegi. Shirley Babashoff also had great versatility across distances. She was denied gold in the 200, 400, and 800 freestyles only by GDR swimmers. She was also great in the 100m free having won the silver medal at the 1972 Olympics. The 200IM, the race which Gould won in 1972 was taken off the slate for the 1976 games. Shirley was an excellent 200IMer and would have been a strong medal favorite with or without the GDR swimmers.
Finally a note about Caulkins re: 1984. Her zenith years ran from about 1977 to 1981. She was world champion in the 200m Butterfly in 1978. She was also a world class breaststroker. She was world silver medalist in the 100m behind the great Soviet breaststroker Bogdonova. She did well to hang on until 1984 but we really missed seeing what she could have done on the big stage at her peak.
Submitted by: ShortChange
September 8, 2010 "All-Around"? There can really be no debate... Tracy Caulkins! Submitted by: howland
September 8, 2010 How 'bout Janet Evans?
Treble gold-medalist @ Seoul, repeat 400 titelist @ Barcelona, innumerable wrs set dring her time, dominant distance freestyler of her era and an oustanding collegiate swimmer @ Stanford for two years...
Too "specialized"?
And on another matter, here's a note I received recently from a prominent non-American coach re the state of our swimming program...any thoughts?
* * * * *
Just a fleeting thought -- but you guys(America),your coaches with SO MANY in swimming are gross UNDER ACHIEVERS,the USA should be much further in front of Australia and Hungary and GBR than you are with so many times the population, the college programs, the country clubs, the wealth of the country! Yes the NUMBERS YOU HAVE IN SWIMMING IN SO MANY GREaT POOLS. --tHE CONCENTRATION OF THE BEST SWIMMERS AT PLACES LOKE TEXAS AND AUBURN AND ON AND ON BEGS THE IMANGINATION.
The chances of finding talent are directly proportional to population --! You should have far more on top of the world rankings No, you are underachievers for all you great University programs and resources.
(I've argued with this person that if wecould get tthe Michael Jordans, the Magic Johnsons, the TTom d in thespoirt Bradys, the had Chad OOchocincos (!!!) not to mention all the great LLatino baseball players in swimming @ three yyears of age and somehow find a way to keep 'em involved nobody would touch us but tht's not going to happen.
Maybe we could clone Ryan Locohte/Michael Phelps/Natalie Coughlin? Submitted by: slickwillie32
September 8, 2010 I would love to go Caulkins, But i have to go with Klochkova, Just because she is the only one i remember in my era, I do think Caulkins would have been amazing to see though. Submitted by: doodledo
September 8, 2010 How come no one (myself included) ever mentioned Inge de Bruin? If anything because of her 100 meter fly record which lasted until last year's world record circus. Her Olympic record is pretty incredible as is her World Champs record. Just a thought......
Slick, you remember that a long time ago the USA WAS waaaay out in front of the world.....we WERE so far our in front the 1968 Mexico Olympic Games was almost an intra-squad competition in the women's department. But then the rest of the world learned to use our training methods and voila!.....parity. I prefer not dominating. It would be boring if the USA won over and over and over.....I love equal (sometimes superior) competition from the rest of the world. Submitted by: paddles
September 8, 2010 Au contraire!
I want the USA to sweep everything in sight and CRUSH the world like an ant!
In fact I'd like to see FINA/IOC change the rules so that there's NO LIMIT on # of competitors a country can have in any one event as long as they make the qualifying standard.
However, make the cuts muy dificil with two different sets, A and B.
Example: A standard for men's Olympic/World 50 free: 21.75 or faster. All who make it get to swim prelims,then winnow it down to Top 16 and then Top 8 and it's survival of the fittest/fastest.
Standard B would be a lot easier -- say 22.5 --and here you'd only get one entry per country per event, an incentive to train your kids to swim faster and get to the "A" level.
I believe the Olympics/Worlds already allow any counry to enter at least one competitor in at least one event so if a kid's notvery good in X but good in Y let him swim that.
Just like NCAAs.
And if that means only two countries' swimmers make it into finals of a given event so be it...this isn't about "democrcy" it's about the Olympics and the World Championships.
Cletius Fortius Altius or however the Greeks phrased it!
Some events we (USA) mite be disproportionately over represented...others underrepresented...and somebody such as the guy from Florida [Sean Fraser] who won NCAA 200 free/fly last year who's from Cayman Islands would still be able to have his day in the sun were he fast enough.
Speaking of Mr. Fraser, wonder if he and his brother Brett and George Bovell among other Caribbean swimmers will be going to Commonwealth Games? That girl sprinter from Auburn, Alana Dillete, who's a Bahamian native? Oh and Texas A&M's breaststroke star/NCAA champ Alia Atkinson. She could give Annamay Pierse and the other Canadian girls -- not to mention Mmes. Jones, Samantha Marshall and Sarah Katsoulis -- a run for their money.
Maybe! Submitted by: slickwillie32
September 8, 2010 Au contraire!
I want the USA to sweep everything in sight and CRUSH the world like an ant!
In fact I'd like to see FINA/IOC change the rules so that there's NO LIMIT on # of competitors a country can have in any one event as long as they make the qualifying standard.
However, make the cuts muy dificil with two different sets, A and B.
Example: A standard for men's Olympic/World 50 free: 21.75 or faster. All who make it get to swim prelims,then winnow it down to Top 16 and then Top 8 and it's survival of the fittest/fastest.
Standard B would be a lot easier -- say 22.5 --and here you'd only get one entry per country per event, an incentive to train your kids to swim faster and get to the "A" level.
I believe the Olympics/Worlds already allow any counry to enter at least one competitor in at least one event so if a kid's notvery good in X but good in Y let him swim that.
Just like NCAAs.
And if that means only two countries' swimmers make it into finals of a given event so be it...this isn't about "democrcy" it's about the Olympics and the World Championships.
Cletius Fortius Altius or however the Greeks phrased it!
Some events we (USA) mite be disproportionately over represented...others underrepresented...and somebody such as the guy from Florida [Sean Fraser] who won NCAA 200 free/fly last year who's from Cayman Islands would still be able to have his day in the sun were he fast enough.
Speaking of Mr. Fraser, wonder if he and his brother Brett and George Bovell among other Caribbean swimmers will be going to Commonwealth Games? That girl sprinter from Auburn, Alana Dillete, who's a Bahamian native? Oh and Texas A&M's breaststroke star/NCAA champ Alia Atkinson. She could give Annamay Pierse and the other Canadian girls -- not to mention Mmes. Jones, Samantha Marshall and Sarah Katsoulis -- a run for their money.
Maybe! Submitted by: slickwillie32
September 8, 2010 I agree Janet Evans should be included in this conversation. It has been stated that Gould and Caulkins lost a lot to the East Germans because of doping. Evans beat those same swimmers and we can just speculate how much more dominate Evans would have been because of this. For this reason, I put Evans ahead of these two swimmers. Submitted by: skipswims
September 8, 2010 Per the comment about Evans beating GDR...let's not forget that Caulkins won both IMs and 200 fly in WR time against them in 1978 World Championships. Plus a silver in 100 Breast (Behind a Russian), and a strong leadoff 100 Free in a WR setting relay. Submitted by: jqdone
September 8, 2010 I have to make one correction about Donna de Varona. She retired from competitive swimming because at the age of 18, she signed a contract with ABC as part of "Wide World of Sports" which made her the first female sportscaster in television history. She actually swam in a meet in Germany and won the 200 and 400 IM in February 1965 and the times in those events were American Records and World Best times because at that time there were no World Records in SCM.
She was set to swim in the 1965 SCY Nationals in April 1965 and ABC offered her the contract because she turned 18 that month. She had to retire from swimming to become a professional with the TV contract. I had never heard anything about leaving swimming because of a lack of a college scholarship. So instead of swimming in the meet she did the TV commentating along with Murray Rose and Jim McKay. This all happened during her senior yrar of high school.
In the fall of 1965, she enrolled at UCLA and for a time coached the UCLA Women's swimming team. From this point on she was the lead swimming analyst for ABC "wide World of Sports".
She modeling for swim suits and helped promote swim products that professional swimmers do today. The big difference is that back then you could not do this and it was against the rules of being an amateur so she could never go back to swimming because of these reasons.
In 1960, at the age of 13, Donna set the World Record in the 400 meter IM and a World Best in the 200 meter IM. This was right before the Olympics and these events were not offered on the Olympic program. We will never know and we can just speculate if she were to swim these events and stayed in the sport until 1968. Donna held the WR in the 400 IM for the most part from July 1960 to to July 1967. Submitted by: skipswims
September 8, 2010 Slick, while I agree that the US does have many advantages I do believe your foreign friend is greatly overstating it. You have to look at the numbers that compete in the sport. The US does have a bit of an advantage there but it narrows considerably when it's not just a rough population comparison. Australia is much closer to the US in terms of numbers in the sport than just the raw population discrepancy between the two countries. However, the numbers in the last few years have been on the rise in the US so we'll see if that translates in the next decade. The college system in the US is helpful but many international swimmers also benefit from it (e.g. Coventry, Heyns, Hosszu, Spofforth, Mellouli, Rogan, etc). I have no idea why they are throwing "country clubs" in there. Not many of the top American swimmers have raced at those and any swimming there would typically be recreational. But on that point there are many communities in the US that do not participate in great numbers in the US. Many low income and minority groups for instance. Swimming is hardly on the scale of ubiquity across all communities in the way basketball and (American) football have been for some time. So your coaching colleague is right in some respects that the US hasn't fully uncovered it's potential. Submitted by: ShortChange
September 8, 2010 Caulkins, but Gould a close second. Gould chose to end her career early; I suspect if she could have gotten a 2nd wind and continued on as long as Caulkins did, that she'd be in the number one spot. Caulkins, in contrast, stuck it out after the disappointment of the 80 Olympic boycott, so had a full career, and she deserves the title. Submitted by: liquidassets
September 8, 2010 You really have to wonder how much faster Shane could have gotten had she still had the desire and hunger to improve and compete. Her closest challenger at her peak, Shirley Babashoff, was almost a second behind Gould in the 200 and about five seconds slower in the 400. Four years later in Montreal, Shirley was four seconds faster in the 200 than her Munich time and close to 14 seconds in the 400 free! Could Gould have shown the same improvement and been the first woman under two minutes in the 200 rather than Kornelia Ender? The same 14 second difference in the 400 from Munich to Montreal as Shirley would have put her at a 4:05! Possible? Impossible? Who knows, but definitely a decade ahead of her time. If Shirley did it,there is nothing that tells me Shane couldn't have swum as fast if not faster. Submitted by: paddles
September 8, 2010 According to the proposed criteria, Iīd have to go with Krisztina Egerszegi..beautiful technique, dominance, versatility..her 200m textile is still to be beaten.
Manadou had the versatility. May be now she has found the necessary peace of mind to make a comeback!!
NOW, Janet Evans and Mary T. Meagher..longest records on the books ever.. Submitted by: nadador
September 8, 2010 This is for the title of the greatest ALL-AROUND female swimmer, so swimmers like Inge De Bruijn should not enter into conversation because she was pure free/fly sprinter.
ALL AROUND means versatility AND range/distance.
janet Evans and Kriztina egerszegi were also similar.
Janet evans was great in middle/distance free and egerszegi was in backstroke, and both had good enough breastroke to give them enough in 400 im.
Submitted by: aswimfan
September 8, 2010 I'm surprised that Coventry hasn't entered into this discussion. Coughlin was considered. Then how about Coventry's versatility from the 100 Back to the 400IM? A multiple world and Olympic Champion that has broken WRs in various events ranging from 100m to 400m in both long course and short course. She's also a great freestyler as evidenced by the world class times she has posted in middle distance freestyle, in particular the 400. Submitted by: ShortChange
September 9, 2010 good point aswimfan. All-around range. Good point. Submitted by: paddles
September 9, 2010 Someone who most people wouldn't think of but should enter into this discussion too is Nancy Hogshead. In the late 1970s, she was world ranked #1 in the 200 fly and silver medalist in that event in the 1978 Worlds, swam in the era of Caulkins, Meagher, and the East Germans and was overshadowed by them to an extent. Qualified for the 200 fly, 200 and 400 IM for the boycotted 1980 Olympics. Resurrected herself as a sprint freestyler and won the 100m free at the 1984 Games, silver in the 200 IM behind Caulkins, barely missed a medal in the 200 fly (she had an asthma attack and at the time had no idea she was asthmatic) and left Los Angeles the most decorated swimmer of the Games with 3 gold and 1 silver, and the most decorated female of all athletes. She may not have the accolades overall to be most versatile ever, but her credentials are pretty impressive.
AS for Manaudou, I believe in my heart of hearts that she is the most talented female swimmer of the past 100 years, and that we barely got to see the tip of what she was truly capable of doing. I really hope she pulls an Amanda Beard or Dara Torres and makes a comeback. Had she put her demons behind her and swam in peak condition in Rome, I have no doubt she would have set a Beamonesque record in the 400. I think she'd have been capable of a 3:56. Submitted by: jjswim
September 9, 2010 Thank you to everybody who commented.
I just counted, and there seem to be five votes for Caulkins, and four for Gould (jqdone: sorry, you only get one vote even though you said Caulkins' name three times). Plus there are a few votes for others (Evans, Kolb, Fraser, de Bruijn, and Egerszegi), and a more general sentiment that Janet Evans should have been included as a candidate.
So who wins? Counting my vote, the final tally is 6-4, Caulkins over Gould, but we as a group are a pretty small sample. I also suspect that if you took this poll in Australia, the results might be different. It'd be nice to call it a tie, but as I said above, that would be sort of a cop out.
Anyway, fun stuff to argue about. I guess baseball and football fans have these kinds of discussions in bars all the time, but most of us would be hard pressed to find a knowledgeable swimming fan in the local bar, so we have to hash it out here. Makes for a more sober and civilized discussion, I guess.
Thanks again to everybody.
John Craig Submitted by: halfbreed
September 9, 2010 John- Thank YOU for these two polls and articles. You had some pretty knowledgeable fans giving their opinions and votes and that matters for quite a lot. It was great fun. Submitted by: paddles
September 9, 2010 Former Australian head coach Don Talbot said Caulkins was the best swimmer he has ever coached, and that is a pretty high accolade given he's coached top swimmers in Australia, the US and Canada. I don't know if that includes Gould (he was the team coach in 1972). Still, he believed Caulkins could do 'anything'.
Gould however, having set WRs in 6 different individual events cannot be dismissed (I don't think any other swimmer in history has managed that, but please correct me if I'm wrong).
She also held Commonwealth Records in the 100 fly and 400 IM. Submitted by: woowoo
September 9, 2010 I also think that Coughlin and Manaudou seem to be a little underrated.
For Manaudou - 100 back to 800 free is very impressive.
She's been top ranked in the:
100 back
200 back
200 free
400 free
800 free
200 IM
WRs in 2 and top 5 rankings in others.
Coughlin too is so impressive and I think she often gets overlooked:
100 back
200 back
100 free, has been ranked #2 all time on two separate occasions
200 free
100 fly
200 IM
I think she also busted out a great 400 free time once (4:09 or something like that).
Despite her and Manaudou not winning individual Olympic golds in their other strokes, their times, success and potential are huge, and perhaps the argument should be Coughlin vs Manaudou not Gould vs Caulkins. Submitted by: woowoo
September 9, 2010 woowoo, considering that Coughlin and Manadou are/were contemporaries and Caulkins and Gould were not, you make a very good point. Submitted by: paddles
September 9, 2010 I voted for Caulkins.
The reason why I didn't vote for Coughlin, is that she didn't swim a lot of events at the Olympics. But then on the other hand, that probably has something to do with why she is still swimming today. Submitted by: flutterby
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