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IRVINE, California, August 20. THE U.S. is four-for-four in relay competitions here at the Pan Pacific Championships, as the American squad took down the meet record to complete the third night of action in Irvine.
The foursome of Michael Phelps (48.13), Ryan Lochte (47.98), Jason Lezak (48.12) and Nathan Adrian (47.51) posted a time of 3:11.74 to complete the conquest. That performance beat the previous meet record of 3:12.46 set by the U.S. in 2006. Incidentally, the win also gave Lochte his fifth gold of the meet with just one more day to go.
Phelps' swift 100 free relay leadoff put him at the top of the world in the event, ahead of Adrian's 48.15 set while winning the individual event last night, which also stood as the meet record heading into this evening.
Australia's Eamon Sullivan, Kyle Richardson, Cameron Prosser and James Magnussen took second in 3:14.30, while South Africa's Lyndon Ferns, Gideon Louw, Roland Schoeman and Graeme Moore placed third in 3:15.93.
Canada (3:16.53), Japan (3:17.49) and Korea (3:24.53) rounded out the finale field.
Day Three Finals Results
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August 20, 2010 Good to see Phelps finally smiling! I believe 48.13 is his best in textile, no? And Hoogie's 47.8 in sight for both him and Adrian now...Also interested what the fasted textile relay was; this must be it or close. Submitted by: liquidassets
August 20, 2010 It is amazing how people desconsider Phelps (including himself), and then, he turns around and swims a CR...
I never thought of him as being able to do the 100...maybe thatīs the motivation he needs (he has tried with it for a while, and then kinda gave it up..but I think this time its for real). Submitted by: nadador
August 20, 2010 His speed is there. His usual endurance isn't. That's what he needs to address in the next year to compete with the Lochtes, Biedermanns, Clarys, etc. Submitted by: ShortChange
August 20, 2010 How about Adrian with a 47.51 split! Submitted by: philipmj24
August 20, 2010 Question: does this mean that although Phelp presently has the fastest 100 Free time in the world this year (48.13, from his relay lead off), he'd not be eligible to compete in the 100 Free individual event at Worlds next year, since he did not swim in the finals of the 100 Free at either the US Nationals or Pan Pacs?
At least that's my (possibly incorrect?) reading of this:
http://www.usaswimming.org/_Rainbow/Documents/a409ee95-c810-4a36-a970-6ec58a386283/USA Swimming 2011 World Championships Selection Procedures_FINAL-5.17.10.pdf
""Qualifying Competitions" shall mean the 2010 ConocoPhillips National Championships to be conducted August 3-7, 2010 and the Pan Pacific Championships August 18-21, 2010, both in Irvine, CA. Preliminary heats, *relay lead-offs* and time trials shall NOT be considered for selection"
Now, how about *Consolation* finals? For example, if times swam in these B finals @ Pan Pacs do count, then:
100 Back
Natalie Coughlin...( 59.70 A)
Liz Pelton.........(1:00.15 B)
200 Back
Elizabeth Beisel...(2:07.83 A)
Missy Franklin.....(2:08.05 B)
OTOH if B finals don't count, then I guess it would be a reversal:
100 Back
Natalie Coughlin...( 59.70 A)
Missy Franklin.....(1:00.16 A)
200 Back
Elizabeth Beisel...(2:07.83 A)
Liz Pelton.........(2:08.10 A)
?? Submitted by: IntlSwimming
August 20, 2010 Hey, Adrianīs 47"51 is as good as Hoogenbandīs time...I hadnīt noticed.
Well, all in all, not the suits, but the way the suits were handled (FINA) is to blame on this mess..when will we ever stop comparing..
Changes come and go..Pankratov and Misty used to swim butterfly underwater, until they changed the rule...
Backstroke turns were also changed (permanently, though).
Breaststroke, also, used to be swam almost under water..(again, a permanent change)..
But the suits came, did their thing, and went away..and FINA now just wants as to get over it..
Well, letīs get over it: there are many record potentials: Cielo, Soni, Hardy, Lochte, Phelps, Honsszu, Alshammar, Ziegler, Kitajima and many others I am sure forgetting righ now (van der Burgh and Silva in 50 breaststroke..)..
I was tempetted to put Pellegrini up here...but her suit time is outa this world..as is Liīs 200 butterfly..
I know for sure I am happy to see some flukes (Herr B.) to just fade away into oblivion... Sorry, but I canīt help but to think he didnīt deserve his records... Submitted by: nadador
August 20, 2010 That would be ridiculous if consolation heats counted. What was all the fuss then about getting into finals if you could just cruise a time in open water from a middle lane in the consoles? The criteria states finals which should mean the final race. Otherwise that means that the B and C consolaton heats at Nationals would also have counted toward selection which is simply insane. I assume Franklin qualified in the 100 back and Pelton in the 200 back. But I await clarification. Submitted by: ShortChange
August 20, 2010 August 20, 2010 Just watched the finals of the men's 4X100 Free Relay. Where was Garrett Weber-Gale? 3rd in qualifying Sr Nationals, 5th fastest time in the 100 Free finals at the Pan Pac meet yesterday! ...and they put in Phelps?!?!? Not that he did not represent with that great leadoff leg, but he did not earn the spot on that relay. Garrett did. Can someone explain that coaching move?
Submitted by: back2back Submitted by: back2back
August 20, 2010 August 20, 2010 Just watched the finals of the men's 4X100 Free Relay. Where was Garrett Weber-Gale? 3rd in qualifying Sr Nationals, 5th fastest time in the 100 Free finals at the Pan Pac meet yesterday! ...and they put in Phelps?!?!? Not that he did not represent with that great leadoff leg, but he did not earn the spot on that relay. Garrett did. Can someone explain that coaching move?
Submitted by: back2back Submitted by: back2back
August 21, 2010 You do need to feel bad for the guy who touched 3rd and earned his spot on the relay at nite. Like someone noted, if you swim a world record in the consols of an event at Nationals, you're not on the team in that event. The criteria for relays used to be pretty well acknowledged by coaches: if you're top 4 at trials you get to swim the relay at night. In the 90s that was tweaked many times on coaches' discretion, like the year Jenny Thompson bombed trials and made it through as an additional prelim swimmer spot but anchored all the relays in finals. Phelps was fantastic, but he didn't put in a qualifier time to be in that spot if we're being technical. But the rules do state coaches have discretion to place any eligible team member on any relay for any reason. So the criteria doesn't really matter anymore, which is a shame for Garrett this time. Submitted by: outside smoke
August 21, 2010 I was under the impression that the top two times(except the100/200 which were four) regardless of what heat they occured in that were achieved during Nationals or Pan Pacs were how the World team was chosen. I thought Hoff say during an interview after she swam her 400 at Pan Pacs that she hoped her 400 time from Nats. would stand up so she could swim it in China next year. So it looks like she and Sutton in the 400 because she just nipped Zieglers time by .02.
As far as the big deal about making finals and not consols..thats pretty obvious, you cant win medal from consols.
Submitted by: bab
August 21, 2010 And I for one am glad Phelps swam the 4free relay if for no other reason then to bolster the US in that event. The 6th place time at Nationals this year was a 49.38 which is about 46th in the world rankings.I mean to have our 6th place guy barely cracking the top 50 is not a good place to be.I dont know what happened to our sprinters, Jones with a 50 at PanPacs? and I sure expected Fiegen and Greevers to be faster.
So as far as the team goes, I am glad but if I were GWG, yea, it would be a disappointment Submitted by: bab
August 21, 2010 "As far as the big deal about making finals and not consols..thats pretty obvious, you cant win medal from consols"
The USA Swimming selection criteria in the link posted above by IntlSwimming clearly states only swims swum in the finals count towards qualification. Submitted by: ShortChange
August 21, 2010 I swear I heard "gold medal mel" say Ziegler was looking to swim the 400 at worlds so needed to post a great time in consols. Submitted by: bab
August 21, 2010 The coaches obviously made the right call in the 4 guys on the relay. Remember, they have seen these guys in practice the last 2 weeks. If you have a hammer (Phelps), you use it! Period. End of story. Submitted by: CAcoach
August 21, 2010 ShortChange:
Here is a link to an article in todays post.It sounds like Ziegler in cons. could have qualified.
http://reachforthewall.com/2010/08/21/hoff-sutton-earn-team-usa-spots/ Submitted by: bab
August 21, 2010 I wish we could get clarification on this from someone at USA-Swimming.
Reason Submitted by: GigemAggies
August 21, 2010 Are you looking for an official interpretation of the qualifying rules? I'll go track it down. Submitted by: Jason Marsteller
August 21, 2010 Just spoke with USA Swimming media relations. The official interpretation is that both A and B final swims from Pan Pacs count in the World Team selection process. Submitted by: Jason Marsteller
August 21, 2010 That'd be perfect Jason, thanks. It takes a lawyer, a doctor, a swim coach, another lawyer a mathematician, and an accountant to interpret these rules it seems like. Submitted by: GigemAggies
August 21, 2010 PS Stefan Nystrand went a 47.91 in 2007. Submitted by: GigemAggies
August 21, 2010 Thank you Jason.
The problem with this as I alluded to earlier is that when many of these swimmers have such an advantage over the others in their console heat they get to swim out in open water. There is a reason FINA does not recognize records swum in time trials. There is a reason why swimmers on relays always talk about having a fast lead off leg to get open water for their teammates to follow.
I'm glad that the US is sending both youngsters Franklin and Pelton who would have made the team regardless of whether consolation heats counted in the 100/200. Essentially because of this they just switched events. However, just to illustrate a point ... Franklin swam most of her race in the consoles out in the open water. Pelton swam a blanket finals heat with both swimmers to the side of her Beisel and Hocking the entire race. Given the slight margin between them it was distinct advantage to swim with tranquil lanes to either side, no wash from the turns, etc. Submitted by: ShortChange
August 22, 2010 ShortChange, great comments. One question: you sure on that FINA statement regarding recognition of records? Back in the day Rowdy's 49.36 100 free in Austin was a time trial swim and also the recorded world record for years. Maybe there was a change later, but also recall that Popov's WR 50 swim was staged with open lanes on both sides.
Not likely, but suppose a WR happened in a heat with only 3 swimmers. FINA does not count it? Submitted by: outside smoke
August 22, 2010 Cheers for the clarification Jason! Agree with ShortChange about the advantages of swimming ahead of a generally weaker field in the B but then you don't tend to have serious challengers on both sides who may spur you to a greater effort and faster time?
Chuffed anyway that Franklin and Pelton qualified for Worlds, though reckon a Beisel-Pelton pairing may be a more potent threat to our Lizzie Simmonds-Gemma in the 200 Back, based on Pelton's 2:07.48 in the morning heats and her chemistry with Beisel...but on the other hand Missy will be getting stronger and faster meanwhile.
How about the American selection criteria for the 50 events other than the 50 Free? I understand that splits from the first 50 of their respective 100 races @ US Nationals were the deciding factor in the past, since non Olympic events are traditionally not contested in the home trials...but they were raced @ Pan Pacs.
At any rate (back to the topic ;) the Americans were so dominant in the relays here. The women's team not so in Beijing & Rome, so this is surely a very positive development for the US.
Only weak link is the front half of their Men's Medley relay as neither Gangloff nor Alexandrov can presently take on the likes of Kitajima & Duboscq, and Peirsol this season nowhere in the form needed to seriously challenge Lacourt. Even the back end counter-punch of a Phelps & Adrian might not be quite enough to relegate the French to also rans next time they meet.
btw I'm still rubbing my eyes at Phelps' 48.13 here - absolutely brill, and that along with his relatively uninspiring 400 IM performance would indicate to me that he and Bowman might do well not to dwell as much on replicating past glories (with all the dedicated commitments and arduous training regimen that he seems to have understandably lost his fire for), but consider instead on preparing for a few less Olympics events and focus on comparatively fresher challenges such as the 100 Free and perhaps one of the Backs...IMHO. Submitted by: IntlSwimming
August 23, 2010 Outside smoke, Fina no longer recognizes WRs done in time trials. This was instituted I believe shortly after Popov's record and it was for the reasons I alluded to earlier.
IntlSwimming, having close competitors may assist with pacing in the long distance freestyle events. But it's not really a help in most races where getting distracted by what's going on in the other lanes is probably more likely to make one lose focus and throw off a swimmer. They need to be concentrating on their stroke and during back staying in the middle of the lane outdoors something many seemed to have issues with in Irvine. Swimming out in open water with zero turbulence and no wash out of the turns is a distinct advantage in everything with the probable exception of breaststroke.
The 50 events as I understand it are not decided based on splits but who swims the 100s. For instance, Vollmer and Magnuson will be offered the opportunity to swim the 50 fly. If one or both decline then the coaches will look to other interested swimmers on the team and make a discretionary decision looking at potential. Beard will likely step aside to allow Hardy to swim the 50 Breast. I have feeling Coughlin will decline the 50 back and so Pelton and Franklin may swim that. There's also a fair chance Cullen Jones will swim the 50 fly in place of Phelps.
You may be right about Pelton but Franklin just turned 15 in May so it will be interesting. The most important thing is that we figure out who the best two are for this event by Trials for London in 2012. But Beisel will have her work cut out for her. But she only just turned 18 herself a couple days ago so it's not like she's a grandma of the team though it seems she's been around so long since she was so gifted so early. One thing to look forward to between now and Worlds next year is that Beisel will be heading down to Florida to start college and begin training under guess who? One Mr. Troy, coach of swimmers like Lochte, Spofforth, Crippen, etc. He knows a thing or two about IMers/backstrokers. I think she's only scratched the surface. Simmonds would be my favorite for next year but she's got some young American's nipping at her heels. It will interesting to see if Coventry makes a comeback.
The women did well in the relays but once the Dutch have all their swimmers available they're still going to be the team to beat in the sprint relay. The US 4x200 was well below the potential of their earlier swims but come next year they'll be faster and they'll need to be. The relay stand out performance was the medley for sure. Australia's long reign in that event could be coming to an end but we'll see.
Submitted by: ShortChange
August 23, 2010 So for short course worlds and world championships next summer they are only taking four for the relay. Will GWG even get a chance to swim the relay or will they stick with Phelps, Lochte,Adrian and Lezak? Submitted by: bab
August 23, 2010 @ShortChange
I think Vollmer will probably decline the 50 fly since she has 6 events for worlds (including relays)
From what I've heard Kirsty Coventry is training and planning to compete. I don't she will be a huge gold medal threat at worlds, but I expect her to be ready to contend for gold in London.
Submitted by: Bbrswimmer24
August 23, 2010 Bab, they will take six for the relay to Worlds. The two swimmers in 5th and 6th from Nationals I believe. The four max relay spots was for Pan Pacs only. Submitted by: ShortChange
August 23, 2010 So they would take the swimmers even though they probably would not swim? Now that Phelps dropped a 48 and dont understand why they would take a 49 swimmer that does not have the Fina A time so not sure they could even get a swim in. Submitted by: bab
August 23, 2010 So does this mean that Dagny Knutson and Jasmine Tosky will make the US team for Worlds as part of the 4x200 relay (joining Schmitt, Vollmer, Scroggy & Hoff)?
That'd be really smashing for the Americans as Knutson had a disappointing trials but I'm sure will pick herself up and fulfill her potential under Sean Hutchinson's tutelage @ FAST...and Tosky is showing a lot of promise and versatility for someone of her age! Submitted by: IntlSwimming
August 23, 2010 I just read the selection process for SC Worlds in Dec and Worlds next August and both meets say top 4 times so it looks like they are only taking 4 for the relay, not 6. In the case of GWG, he will go but whether he will get to swim in the relay is another thing. Also the selection rules state you have to have the Fina A time so regardless of where you placed at nationals, if you dont have it, you dont go. Or at least that is my inturpretation of what it says but I could have missed something . Submitted by: swimfantoo
August 23, 2010 Swimfantoo, no that is incorrect. Read priority #3 and #4 under the selection procedures for Worlds. IntlSwimming it appears Knutson and Tosky made the team on the relay. Tosky is on the JR Pan Pacs roster and swimmers on that team cannot have participated in the Olympics, Worlds, or Pan Pacs. I assume it just means in the past and doesn't reflect swimmers named to future teams but I could be wrong. Submitted by: ShortChange
August 23, 2010 OK, this is what I got from it.. 26 men, 26 women. First priority is as follows:
The first priority shall include both (i) the four fastest Available Swimmers based on an integration of the single fastest times swum by each swimmer during the Finals of the Qualifying Competitions in each of the 100- meter and 200- meter freestyle Events.
After that, the first fastest swimmer in each Olympic event. Then 2nd fastest swimmer in each Olympic event, Then, they go to the 5th on the totum pole in the 100, and 200 free, Then, and only then do they go to the 6th. in the 100/200 free event.
So the odds that a 6th place finisher at Nats is going to go are slim and even if they did, that they would get to swim are slim to none.
As I said, it is pretty complicated..Jason, what does your crystal ball say? Submitted by: swimfantoo
August 23, 2010 BTW, when do the team announcements come out? Submitted by: swimfantoo
August 23, 2010 Swimfantoo, there will be plenty of room on the roster given the number of swimmers on the team slated for more than one event. This is the same criteria that's been used for past Olympics and Worlds. There has just about always been six swimmers comprising the relay pool. They are not guaranteed a swim but usually all of them do tend to get at least one morning swim in the heats. Instances where that does not occur are quite rare exceptions. Submitted by: ShortChange
August 24, 2010 It looks like the same selection procedure that was used for PanPacs too and they only took the top 4 in the 100/200 for freestyle.,They ended up going a little deeper in the distance. Submitted by: bab
August 24, 2010 It is not the same selection procedure for Pan Pacs. The team is filled out very differently. For starters there are not more than two swimmers qualified per event. Have a look at the criteria on the USA Swimming website.
http://www.usaswimming.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=1469&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en-US
Six swimmers for the 100 and 200 freestyles will go to the World Championships as part of the relay pool. Guaranteed. Submitted by: ShortChange
August 24, 2010 I think ShortChange is right - 2 per individual events and up to 6 for the relay team for Worlds (and presumably the Olympics) v. up to 4 in the ind. events 4 for the relays @ Pan Pacs. Some of the confusion might be arising from trying to make sense of the convoluted language in that document and sorting out the differences between the selection criteria for regular Submitted by: IntlSwimming
August 24, 2010 *[reposting the rest of my comments above as they were cut off for some reason]
...regular & relay races.
So Weber-Gale & Walters should be in for the 4x100 relay (morning heats likely) and Robison would have been the 6th if it wasn't for Phelps.
Back to the 50 swims - much as we'd all love to see Amanda Beard's comeback culminating in a medal or two at the 100 & 200 Breast, I reckon the Americans will have a significantly higher chance of medaling at the 50 if Beard was to let Hardy pair up with Soni to challenge Effimova & Jones.
Also if Thoman & Grevers (or even Bal) had qualified for the Worlds team, they'd probably been capable of faster swims at the 50 distance than Peirsol or Plummer.
And I do hope Julia Smit and Matt Grevers, along with Megan Jendrick, Margaret Hoelzer, Kim Vandenburg, Kasey Carlson, Katy Freeman etc. who didn't qualify for Shanghai won't be too discouraged but will all come back strong instead to compete at the 2012 trials... Submitted by: IntlSwimming
August 24, 2010 OK, so if you assume they take the top 6 automatically for relays which I am still not sure about after reading the criteria, will the 6th guy I guess it would be Robinson even get a chance to swim? Because we are not actually talking 6 here, but 7. Phelps time cant technically be counted because it was a relay lead off but you know the relay at night will probablly have Phelps after he dropped that 48 so assuming its Phelps Lochte lezak and Adrian at finals, they would still take 6 more so in reality,they have 7. And will they take someone that does not have the Fina A time?
I think the whole can't count a relay lead off time in this situation is foolish. I understand you want to say top 6 go, top 6 swim but its not realistic and makes no sense when you have a 7th you are planning on swimming. Submitted by: swimfantoo
August 24, 2010 Anybody on the team can swim on a relay. Not just those in the relay pool. Natalie Coughlin did not swim the 200 free at trials in 2004 but she swam it in Athens and led off the relay with a time that would have won the individual 200 on the way to gold for the team. They took six others as part of the relay pool.
It's not at all unprecedented for the four swimmers in the relay final to be totally different to the swimmers that swam in the heats. Usually for the US in the men's 4x200 it's been three new swimmers in the final. That's what happened at Melbourne in 2007 and Beijing in 2008. So that's a total of seven swimmers. The only way someone doesn't get a swim is if the coaches feel the US won't be fast enough in the heats to qualify comfortably for finals. But again nobody is guaranteed a swim. The coaches are very diligent about pointing this out to everyone especially after the Cristina Teuscher issue in Sydney. Submitted by: ShortChange
August 24, 2010 From what weīve seen in past years/situations, ShortChange is right: anyone on the team is elligible to swim the relay. There are many examples of this...For Beijing ī08, just to be sure, Phelps swam only the prelims during Trials.. and got a spot on the relay.. Submitted by: nadador
August 24, 2010 re ShortChange's explanation "Anybody on the team can swim on a relay. Not just those in the relay pool" - the following paragraph from the US selection criteria doc for 2011 Worlds appears to confirm this:
"III. DISCRETIONARY SELECTION
Discretionary selection will not be used for any swimmers in individual Olympic Events from the Qualifying Competition. However, all swimmers who are on the Team shall be eligible for selection as provided in this Section III to any and all relays to be held at the Championships.
A. The Head Coach, in consultation with the assistant coaches and National Team Head Coach, shall select the swimmers for each relay conducted at the Championships. In selecting the relay teams, the Head Coach, in consultation with the assistant coaches and National Team Head Coach, shall consider all available information, including but not limited to each Team Member's Qualifying Competition performances (including preliminary times, time trials, and relay lead-off times), past relay performances, past relay reaction times, relay exchange experience, 2011 World Championship performances, personal best performances, 2011 Championships schedules, individual workload, other recent results and performances, consistency of performances, fatigue, health, fitness levels, training preparation, participation in relay training camps, scientific evaluation, attitude and team chemistry. Selection of swimmers for relays shall not be subject to challenge."
In other words the coaches can just about choose anyone who's already on the team to race in the relays, and their decision is final lol
Submitted by: IntlSwimming
August 26, 2010 nadador,
Mr. Biedermann, who unquestionably benefited more than most from the poly suits (he admitted it readily), is still no "fluke". His is still the 2nd fastest 200 free in the world this year. Surely a fit Phelps is faster, so technically he's third fastest, but people seem to forget that he's been on the rise for the last several years (I believe since 2007). Count on him going 1:44 next year. Phelps and Lochte won't be able to simply dismiss him. Submitted by: mario2007
August 26, 2010 So did 15 year old Chenault just knock Tosky out of the 4x200 free relay by having the Submitted by: bab
August 26, 2010 No. Jr Pan Pacs in Hawaii are not part of the qualifying process for Worlds. Submitted by: ShortChange
August 28, 2010 There have Pan American Games next year. I want to know what's the best choice for Knutson and Tosky? To join the World Championships 4x200 free relay team, or to earn the Pan Americans?20chances?And there also have the Fina World Junior Championships next year. Tosky can swim this one, too.
Whether Morozov could get the citizenship to join the national Championships next year?
Submitted by: Lostriver
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