Guest editorial by John Craig
PHOENIX, Arizona, May 25. SPORTS fans have always debated the hypothetical questions, for instance, how athletes from different eras would have fared against each other.
Luckily, with swimming, stopwatches have always been calibrated the same, so it's relatively easy to compare swimmers from different eras. But, there are always complications that make comparisons less straightforward than they seem.
As a swimming fan, there are a number of things I would like – or would have liked – to see. It's too late for some, but others are still possible. A short list follows. (The first two deal with the overworked topic of tech suits, so let me get those out of the way first.)
* I'd like to see the current crop of outstanding sprinters race in briefs in Rome to see how they'd compare to Alexander Popov's 21.64. Maybe Fred Bousquet is faster than that, maybe not. Either way, we'd have our curiosity satisfied.
* I'd like to see the 1981 version of Mary T. Meagher get to race in a deep pool, wearing a new suit, to see what she could go for a 200 fly now. (My money is still on her as the greatest 200 flyer of all time.) I'd also be curious to see what the 1988 version of Janet Evans could have done in a tech suit. (Alternatively, I'd like to see what Rebecca Adlington and Liu Zige could do in an old nylon suit.)
* I'd like to see the alternate universe where Kiki Vandeweghe, Tim Duncan, and Kris Humphries continued their swimming careers till age 25, just to see what they might have been capable of. All three showed tremendous early promise, then deserted the sport for basketball. Vandeweghe set several NAG records as a 10 year old back in 1969, and eventually grew to be 6' 8," 220. He played with the Nuggets, the Trail Blazers, and the Knicks. Duncan was a swimmer until a hurricane destroyed the only Olympic-sized pool on his home of St. Croix (He was reluctant to practice in the ocean because of his fear of sharks). He ended up as a 6' 11" star for the San Antonio Spurs. Humphries set three NAG records as a 10 year old (his 50 lcm free record still stands), then turned to basketball at age 12. He became a 6' 9" power forward for the Toronto Raptors. (Both Vandeweghe and Duncan had sisters who became Olympic swimmers.) I know, all three of these guys probably ended up with more money for having played basketball, so I can't begrudge them their choices. But as a swimming fan, I can't help but wonder what might have been.
* I'd like to see the 1984 version of Rick Carey swim a 200 meter backstroke with flip turns and several dolphin kicks off each wall. A flip turn plus several dolphin kicks (as opposed to the old hand touch backstroke turn with no dolphin kicks) has to be worth at least a second per turn. So Carey's best time of 1:58.4 in the 200 backstroke in 1984 compared very favorably with the top backstroke times of 20 years later. (Likewise, Betsy Mitchell's 2:08.6 from 1986 still looks awfully good.)
* I'd like to see Michael Phelps try a 100 fly breathing only every other stroke, using a straighter pull (the keyhole pattern he uses is more of a 200 fly stroke), just to see what he could do. Bowman has him breathing every stroke to maintain a consistent rhythm, and maybe he does have to breathe more to make up for those eight dolphin kicks off every wall. But I have the feeling he'd go faster with a more Cavic- or Munoz-like stroke. Phelps now has different strokes for his 100 and 200 free; he could do the same with his two fly events. There's no reason he has to be a body length behind at the 50.
* I'd like to see Natalie Coughlin really go for a 200 yard IM sometime. (Her days as a cardio animal may be over, but at one point, she probably could have gotten the 400 IM and 500 free records as well.) Given that she's set American records in the 50, 100, and 200 yard free, 100 and 200 yard back, and 100 and 200 yard fly, and in late '07 held all of those records simultaneously, one can hardly accuse her of not having explored her limits. And yes, she did medal in the 200 IM in Beijing. But still, she ought to try a serious 200 yard IM, which would lend itself more to her underwater abilities. I'd also like to see her really attack the World Cup circuit one of these years. If she can win six medals in one Olympics swimming long course, imagine what she could do short course.
* I'd like to see Michael Phelps and Ryan Lochte participate in the World Cup circuit one of these years, for the same basic reasons. With their underwaters, they'd rip up the short course record books. Given that neither has ever really peaked for an SCM meet, that set of records, at least on the men's side, is somewhat cheaper currency. Time to bring those records into line.
* I'd like to see Laure Manaudou achieve some sort of peace of mind, then make a comeback with, say, NBAC. She wouldn't be hounded by the French media in Baltimore, and she'd have some great training partners. Bob Bowman has had a great deal of success with middle distance types. (And he seems to be a master psychologist as well.) Her 1:55.5 and 4:02.1 still compare very favorably to the newer, suit-enhanced records. A couple years of consistent training with a stable (if boring, by her standards) lifestyle should do it. There would be no better way for her to take revenge for those leaked photos than to win in London.
* I'd like to see the 50 stroke (non-freestyle) distances added at the Olympics. In track, the shortest event lasts approximately 10 seconds, then there are the sprint hurdles, which last roughly 12 seconds, and then the 200, which lasts for 19 seconds. In swimming, the shortest non-freestyle event lasts for 50 seconds. We should get the 50's added. (I wouldn't even mind a 25 at short course events. Okay, a 25 would never pass official muster, but it would certainly be fun to keep unofficial records.)
* I'd like to see a 50 meter underwater event. Or maybe a 50 yard underwater event, so that the swimmers could get a breath at the turn. This would answer the question, for once and for all, of who the best underwater dolphin kicker is. (Coaches now refer to the underwater dolphin as "the fifth stroke;" let's make it that.)
John Craig's personal (mostly non-swimming) blog is justnotsaid.blogspot.com
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May 25, 2009 yesterday, laure manaudou said in an tv intervieu , "that if she decided to continue to swim until london, she would be training in the us . Submitted by: maly
May 25, 2009 I'd like to seetowdy and Lunk @ thehir '84 prime in Jakeds swim @ Romevs. a rejuvenated Kitajima Kitajima an Bernard/Bousuet.
I'd like to see Phelps @ Atlanta this December shaved, tapewred, rested and ready/motivated to break 200 free, both fly and both IM records (scy).
I'd l to see Matt Vogel in his '76 prime aain in a trick suit and ready to go up againstPhekps @ Rome (Spitztoo for that matter in Munich form).
And as long as we're dreaming...how aboutSeissmullercoming back and racing thebestof today in the 50-100 frees lcm? Submitted by: slickwillie32
May 25, 2009 How about Biondi and Jager 1988 in a speed suit? Or Brian Goodell 1976? Think they would really put up some times from their prime? Submitted by: OLDSCHOOL
May 25, 2009 Could you imagine Katie Hoff and Laure Manadou training TOGETHER at NBAC? Look out, there goes the sub-4 minute barrier! Bob Bowman, call Laure Manadou NOW! Submitted by: paddles
May 25, 2009 How 'bout Jesse V. and Ricky Prado vs. say Phelps and Lochgte, ALL in Jkaeds over300 meters?
Or Goodell/Mike Burton vs. Ous, Hackett and Salnikov at 1000 meters -- say @ Texas? Maybe even Madruga and Kurt Krumpholz? Submitted by: slickwillie32
May 25, 2009 Egerszegi and Coventry level playing field. Either both swimmers in the 1990s suit Egersaegi wore or the LZR for each. Either way, that would be one HUGE match-up! Submitted by: paddles
May 25, 2009 How about Jessie Owens, Carl Lewis and Bolt in the 100 Meters. Submitted by: speedboat1990
May 25, 2009 How about Jessie Owens, Carl Lewis and Bolt in the 100 Meters. Submitted by: speedboat1990
May 25, 2009 I wanna say Owens, but Bolt is in another universe. Submitted by: paddles
May 26, 2009 Not sure how some of the older swimmers from the '70's like Burton or Krumpholz would stack up. Burton's best 1500 meters was 15:52+, Krumpholz's best 400 meters was 4:00.11. A better race would be Kieren Perkins vs. the current crop. Perkin's bests were 3:43.8 and 14:41.6, both done in briefs, which, with a reasonable allowance made for the new suits, were both better than the winning times in Beijing. Biondi is another one who compares well. His best was a 48.4, making him the second fastest swimmer in briefs ever (to Popov's 48.2), to my knowledge. After that Klim went a full-suited 48.18, then Hoogenband took it down to 47.83 with leggings, then with the tech suits it got ridiculous. Freestyle's the easiest comparison to make, because the rules have changed with backstroke (allowing for a flip turn) and breaststroke (allowing for complete submersion of the head and a dolphin kick off each wall), and the strokes themselves have evolved within the rules (mostly with the underwater dolphin kicks). Because of the backstroke turn change, I actually think Betsy Mitchell's 2:08.6 is at least as good as the Egerszegi WR of 2:06.6 which stood for 17 years, and because of the tech suits, both are at at least as good as Coventry's current WR. Submitted by: halfbreed
May 26, 2009 Not sure how some of the older swimmers from the '70's like Burton or Krumpholz would stack up. Burton's best 1500 meters was 15:52+, Krumpholz's best 400 meters was 4:00.11. A better race would be Kieren Perkins vs. the current crop. Perkin's bests were 3:43.8 and 14:41.6, both done in briefs, which, with a reasonable allowance made for the new suits, were both better than the winning times in Beijing. Biondi is another one who compares well. His best was a 48.4, making him the second fastest swimmer in briefs ever (to Popov's 48.2), to my knowledge. After that Klim went a full-suited 48.18, then Hoogenband took it down to 47.83 with leggings, then with the tech suits it got ridiculous. Freestyle's the easiest comparison to make, because the rules have changed with backstroke (allowing for a flip turn) and breaststroke (allowing for complete submersion of the head and a dolphin kick off each wall), and the strokes themselves have evolved within the rules (mostly with the underwater dolphin kicks). Because of the backstroke turn change, I actually think Betsy Mitchell's 2:08.6 is at least as good as the Egerszegi WR of 2:06.6 which stood for 17 years, and because of the tech suits, both are at at least as good as Coventry's current WR. Submitted by: halfbreed
May 26, 2009 I'd love to see Zeigler vs. Evans in the 1,500 in their prime(s). Both either in a 80's suit, or one of the new TechAstroMonsterGlideLazerJakedTerminator3000 suits.
I'd have to give it to Evans though. I also agree with others re: Betsy Mitchell and Mary T's WR's. Ouch! Submitted by: Hodori88
May 26, 2009 I remember Kieren's 3:43 from Rome in 1994. It truly was otherworldly because until Thorpe came around and took a huge bite out of that 3:43 with his then 3:41, nobody up until that point had done serious damage to the 400 world record since Tim Shaw cut nearly FOUR SECONDS (3:54) from the THEN world record back in 1974 (3:58).
Not meaning to stir up the waters more than they have already been churned, but I would like to see a change in the butterfly stroke. Rather than touching the wall and tucking the body in to turn, I would like to see a freestyle flip turn. It is easy...smooth and fits the rhythm of the stroke. The flip turn is faster than touch, tuck and push off. ALL of the swimmers can do this. No athletes are excluded because of the cost, etc. I bet the 100 fly times would get very very close to the freestyle times. Submitted by: paddles
May 26, 2009 How about David Wilkie's 1976 200m Breaststroke in a world record swim of 2:15.11 a full 3 sec better than the then existing world record. With the change in rules regarding the head able to go under the water and dolphin kick out of the turn I'm sure David would have given the current sub 2:10 swimmers a run for their money. Submitted by: scotswim
May 26, 2009 How about David Wilkie's 1976 200m Breaststroke in a world record swim of 2:15.11 a full 3 sec better than the then existing world record. With the change in rules regarding the head able to go under the water and dolphin kick out of the turn I'm sure David would have given the current sub 2:10 swimmers a run for their money. Submitted by: scotswim
May 26, 2009 In briefs -- Biondi in his prime on one side, Popov in his prime on the other and Bernard in the middle. Because for a fast race -- Biondi and Popov would need an open lane between them.
:)
And if you are going to use a breaststroker...you have to use Barrowman. That guy was 2:10 in briefs. With his body type in a tech suit? Bet he could have gone 2:07 low-mid. Submitted by: rcoach
May 26, 2009 I can't believe no one has mentioned the Tracy Caulkins SCY 400 IM from 1981 of 4:04.63. When she swam that time, she also held the 200 back AR under old rules, plus both breast, the 500 free, and both IMs. My guess is that given the stroke rule changes and the idiotic suits she may be the sole sub 4:00 swim. I agree with the other posts that single out Mitchell's LC 200 back as perhaps the greatest backstroke swim. Don't forget when Coughlin broke it it was under new rules and only .07. Submitted by: jqdone
May 26, 2009 I can't believe no one has mentioned the Tracy Caulkins SCY 400 IM from 1981 of 4:04.63. When she swam that time, she also held the 200 back AR under old rules, plus both breast, the 500 free, and both IMs. My guess is that given the stroke rule changes and the idiotic suits she may be the sole sub 4:00 swim. I agree with the other posts that single out Mitchell's LC 200 back as perhaps the greatest backstroke swim. Don't forget when Coughlin broke it it was under new rules and only .07. Submitted by: jqdone
May 26, 2009 jqdone, Tracey will FOREVER be the undisputed queen of American swimming. I always thought that she NEVER reached her full potential. Look how long it took to break her 400 yard I.M. record - from 1979 to 1992. Her 500 yard freestyle American lasted even longer! Not to mention (as you so rightly stated) the fact that she owned world or American records in every stroke plus the I.M.s. Wow. Even Phelps has never done that. Caulkins in a 400 meter I.M. race would be unbeatable. Don't forget that she won the 1984 Olympic gold medal by nearly ten full seconds! Who knows just how good she could have been if seriously pushed. THIS would be MY fantasy race. Caulkins fully primed and ready in a LZR against Stephanie Rice or Katie Hoff or Kirsty Coventry or Yana Klotchkova or ALL of them! Submitted by: paddles
May 26, 2009 Get a grip everyone!
Paddles, why are you fantasizing about Caulkins in a LZR, surely this is in complete contrast to our desire to rid the sport of these terrible suits. Comparisons with the past should be made with the current swimmers wearing the same suits as the past. Imagining past swimmers in Jaked or other abominations is totally ridiculous and only strengthens the case to keep them.
Keep the focus! Forget these suits and compare the swimmers and techniques!!!
Submitted by: scotswim
May 27, 2009 THIS IS CALLED FANTASY. WHEN DID YOU BECOME THE JUDGE TO OUR FNATASIES, SCOTSWIM????? You get the grip. Lighten up and let each of us to have a fantasy. what is this, the former USSR????? Submitted by: paddles
May 27, 2009 Just a friendly reminder, please keep the conversations/arguments civil. Submitted by: Jason Marsteller
June 2, 2009 Paddles: I thought Evans broke Caulkins 500 free record in college, like in 89 or 90, making it NOT longer than Caulkins 400 IM.
I completely agree on comments made regarding the swims of Mary T and Betsy Mitchell. Is there anyway to get ahold of tapes of the 81 nationals where Meagher set those two great world records? I have seen the 200 fly swim on the ISHOF website before, but the 100 fly one was not shown at that same time when it was available on their site. Just curious. Submitted by: Park528
June 2, 2009 You are right, Park. It was 1990 that Evans took down Tracey's 500 yard record. Submitted by: paddles
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