﻿{"id":460597,"date":"2021-01-28T06:08:35","date_gmt":"2021-01-28T13:08:35","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.swimmingworldmagazine.com\/news\/?p=460597"},"modified":"2021-01-28T06:08:35","modified_gmt":"2021-01-28T13:08:35","slug":"out-of-the-pool-markus-rogan-on-performance-psychology-and-finding-identity","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.swimmingworldmagazine.com\/news\/out-of-the-pool-markus-rogan-on-performance-psychology-and-finding-identity\/","title":{"rendered":"Out of the Pool: Markus Rogan on Performance Psychology and Finding Identity"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><strong>Out of the Pool: Markus Rogan on Performance Psychology and Finding Identity<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><em>The life of a swimmer extends well beyond the pool. In a new occasional series, Out of the Pool, we talk to former swimmers who\u2019ve gone on to excel in their post-athletic careers.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Markus Rogan<\/strong> was on the verge of this third Olympic Games when he felt safe declaring <a href=\"http:\/\/archive.boston.com\/sports\/articles\/2008\/08\/14\/austrias_rogan_cant_wait_to_get_out_of_pool\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">that he no longer enjoyed swimming<\/a>. It\u2019s a testament <a href=\"https:\/\/www.swimmingworldmagazine.com\/news\/markus-rogan-announces-plans-to-retire-after-2009-world-championships\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">to the Austrian\u2019s journey<\/a> that he still had one more Olympics left in him after that.<\/p>\n<p>The silver medalist in the 100-meter and 200-meter backstroke at the 2004 Athens Games, Rogan had a complicated journey through the sport. The Stanford grad competed on the international stage for more than a decade, emigrating to the Washington D.C. area in high school from his native Austria. He credits swimming with opening the door for many of the aspects of his life he now enjoys at age 38.<\/p>\n<p>But they came at a price. And the emotional weight of that journey is what led Rogan to a post-athletic career as a psychologist.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cIgnoring symptoms makes you sick,\u201d R<a href=\"https:\/\/drmarkusrogan.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">ogan\u2019s website reads<\/a>. \u201cFacing them makes you come alive.\u201d Specializing in \u201cexperiential performance psychology\u201d in Southern California, Rogan works with clients who are athletes and some who aren\u2019t. He works in clinical settings and as a sports psychologist, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.olympic.org\/athlete365\/well-being\/deal-with-anxiety\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">focusing on performance and the challenges athletes face<\/a>. As he says, \u201cMost of my patients are athletes, and most of my athletes are patients.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/tw-lXSi-4k4\" width=\"560\" height=\"315\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><em>Swimming World<\/em> caught up with the four-time Olympian and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.swimmingworldmagazine.com\/news\/world-short-course-championships-flash-austrias-markus-rogan-touches-out-ryan-lochte-for-200-back-world-record\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">world-record holder<\/a> recently to discuss his post-swimming career and how his achievements in the pool informed his journey.<\/p>\n<p>(The interview is lightly edited for clarity.)<\/p>\n<p><strong>Swimming World: What is it that drew you to becoming a psychologist?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Markus Rogan<\/strong>: I can tell you specifically the moment. My psychologist was <strong>Ken Ravizza<\/strong>, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.mlb.com\/cubs\/news\/sports-psychologist-ken-ravizza-dies-c285001952\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">who has since passed but was an amazing psychologist who also worked with the Cubs<\/a> when they won the World Series for the first time. We were in his backyard and he did this amazing exercise where he gave me these buckets and he asked me about all the pain that\u2019s happening in my life. For each pain I mentioned, he gave me a brick and wrote how to describe the pain on that brick, and put it in the bucket. And he had me walk around his yard with these buckets full of bricks. And he said, \u2018you know, carry them as long as you want. You\u2019ve been carrying some of these bricks for decades. So just keep carrying them. You can be in my yard as long as you want.\u2019<\/p>\n<p>So I saw two things for the first time in that moment. One is that pain happens. We all have traumas and fears and abuses and all these things happen in our lives, but the suffering is optional. Especially after the immediate trigger or trauma or abuse happens, after that, the suffering is in your mind and your heart. There are real scars, but you can do something about it. That was just a real big relief for me, and it was so helpful that I\u2019d love to help others in this way. So I decided right then, hey, this is what I want to study.<\/p>\n<p><strong>SW: In listening to your TED Talk and the way you\u2019re open about carrying your traumas, how much of your approach with clients is looking to provide some of the messages that maybe you wish you had heard earlier?<\/strong><\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_460694\" style=\"width: 364px\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-460694\" data-attachment-id=\"460694\" data-permalink=\"https:\/\/www.swimmingworldmagazine.com\/news\/out-of-the-pool-markus-rogan-on-performance-psychology-and-finding-identity\/markus-rogan-no-date-by-tim-morse-4-1\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/vmrw8k5h.tinifycdn.com\/news\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/01\/Markus-Rogan-no-date-by-Tim-Morse-4-1.jpg\" data-orig-size=\"1158,1613\" data-comments-opened=\"1\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;1611780634&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;0&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"Markus Rogan no date by Tim Morse 4 (1)\" data-image-description=\"&lt;p&gt;Markus Rogan no date by Tim Morse 4 (1)&lt;\/p&gt;\n\" data-image-caption=\"&lt;p&gt;Photo Courtesy: Tim Morse \/ Swimming World Archive&lt;\/p&gt;\n\" data-medium-file=\"https:\/\/vmrw8k5h.tinifycdn.com\/news\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/01\/Markus-Rogan-no-date-by-Tim-Morse-4-1-700x500.jpg\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/vmrw8k5h.tinifycdn.com\/news\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/01\/Markus-Rogan-no-date-by-Tim-Morse-4-1-735x1024.jpg\" class=\" wp-image-460694\" src=\"https:\/\/vmrw8k5h.tinifycdn.com\/news\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/01\/Markus-Rogan-no-date-by-Tim-Morse-4-1-700x500.jpg\" alt=\"Markus Rogan no date by Tim Morse 4 (1)\" width=\"354\" height=\"253\" \/><p id=\"caption-attachment-460694\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photo Courtesy: Tim Morse \/ Swimming World Archive<\/p><\/div>\n<p><strong>MR<\/strong>: I think early on, I tried to treat my younger self. And I think that\u2019s a mistake that a lot of therapists make. And I don\u2019t think I can help anyone that is experiencing pain that I don\u2019t have any idea what it feels like. I have to do my clinical due diligence and say, I\u2019m sorry, I can\u2019t help you. That\u2019s humbling and embarrassing sometimes to say. But I know I can help people who have similar pains or similar enough pains that I had. Specifically, one thing that I can really connect with is some athletes who really, really crave that external validation, the athletes who are swimming, in our case, or fighting or playing for the next big-money contract and who get caught up in that validation from the outside.<\/p>\n<p><strong>SW: You talk a lot about the identity piece \u2013 of how athletes define themselves as athletes and by their accomplishments. How much do you think that identity challenge is part of mental and emotional struggles we see in athletes?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>MR<\/strong>: Absolutely, and I think there\u2019s a very specific reason for that: When we\u2019re teenagers, a normal teenager asks themselves, \u2018who am I? What is good about me? What is not good about me? What is socially acceptable? Not socially acceptable? Unappealing?\u2019 These are painful questions of identity. Athletes in general, but good athletes especially, get a ready-made identity handed to them. Oh, you\u2019re a good swimmer. Case closed. (In my experience) I have great social connections, I could become part of groups just by being a great athlete. The reason I can speak English is because I could swim, because when I moved to the U.S. when I was 14 years old, I had actually failed English in Austria and I couldn\u2019t speak a word. But guess what, when I moved here, I was ESL (English as a second language) and the swimmers at that high school saw, \u2018hey that kid can swim; let\u2019s teach him English so he doesn\u2019t fail his classes.\u2019 I had the great advantage of learning English.<\/p>\n<p>Athletes don\u2019t have to go through the painful teenage process of finding their identity because they have an identity that\u2019s handed to them in the form of achievement. But achievement is more than just, you\u2019re good at something. It gives you a full picture. Of course you do get a little \u2013 you\u2019re great, I\u2019m a swimmer, I don\u2019t have to worry about what\u2019s my sexuality, what\u2019s my gender identity, what\u2019s my motivation for living, what\u2019s my motivation for dying \u2013 all these painful, uncomfortable, awkward questions that I never had to have.<\/p>\n<p>But then of course, the questions don\u2019t go away. They linger, and then while the other teenagers figure it out by their mid-20s, we\u2019re getting medals, we\u2019re getting money, we\u2019re not going to listen to those questions. We\u2019ve got more medals to win and more money to make. So then the questions catch up to you. And you see this all the time. Why do grown men, like 30-year-old athletes, behave like teenagers? Because that\u2019s where they are.<\/p>\n<p><strong>SW: I guess it\u2019s a question that you can\u2019t escape, ultimately.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>MR<\/strong>: You\u2019d better answer it. You could of course have so much money that no one ever asks you, or have so much fame that no one ever asks you. People don\u2019t push people that they want to have sex with or get money from.<\/p>\n<p><strong>SW: In your process of transitioning away from an athletic career, do you ever think how your career might have been different if you had this perspective earlier?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>MR<\/strong>: I think I would\u2019ve abused less drugs and alcohol in my 20s. I would\u2019ve been a lot more open and vulnerable in relationships, and I would\u2019ve been less obsessed with my outside image. I think I would\u2019ve been a better friend, brother, man, son, lover. But maybe, and this is a painful question I can\u2019t answer, maybe I would\u2019ve been less of a good athlete.<\/p>\n<p><strong>SW: You\u2019ve worked not just with clients in a clinical setting but also athletes and teams, among them the 2016 Brazilian Olympic swim team in Rio. What can you say about your work with them?<\/strong><\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_460693\" style=\"width: 328px\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-460693\" data-attachment-id=\"460693\" data-permalink=\"https:\/\/www.swimmingworldmagazine.com\/news\/out-of-the-pool-markus-rogan-on-performance-psychology-and-finding-identity\/markus-rogan-no-date-by-tim-morse-2-1\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/vmrw8k5h.tinifycdn.com\/news\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/01\/Markus-Rogan-no-date-by-Tim-Morse-2-1.jpg\" data-orig-size=\"1173,1613\" data-comments-opened=\"1\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;1611780638&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;0&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"Markus Rogan no date by Tim Morse 2 (1)\" data-image-description=\"&lt;p&gt;Markus Rogan no date by Tim Morse 2 (1)&lt;\/p&gt;\n\" data-image-caption=\"&lt;p&gt;Photo Courtesy: Tim Morse \/ Swimming World Archive&lt;\/p&gt;\n\" data-medium-file=\"https:\/\/vmrw8k5h.tinifycdn.com\/news\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/01\/Markus-Rogan-no-date-by-Tim-Morse-2-1-700x500.jpg\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/vmrw8k5h.tinifycdn.com\/news\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/01\/Markus-Rogan-no-date-by-Tim-Morse-2-1-745x1024.jpg\" class=\" wp-image-460693\" src=\"https:\/\/vmrw8k5h.tinifycdn.com\/news\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/01\/Markus-Rogan-no-date-by-Tim-Morse-2-1-700x500.jpg\" alt=\"Markus Rogan\" width=\"318\" height=\"227\" \/><p id=\"caption-attachment-460693\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photo Courtesy: Tim Morse \/ Swimming World Archive<\/p><\/div>\n<p><strong>MR<\/strong>: The fascinating thing about that was when the soccer team, the loss at the World Cup in 2014 7-1 to Germany, that\u2019s when the pressure really, really shifted to the Olympic team. I\u2019d like to claim that I\u2019m this great psychologist that really helped them, but what it really was was them realizing, \u2018wow, the pressure is real.\u2019 A lot of athletes will say, \u2018I can handle the pressure. Ah, no problem.\u2019 Or deny, deny, deny it. And then they get to the Games or the World Cup and then they get knocked out. As much as I\u2019d love to say I helped them, it was much more them realizing it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>SW: You talked at the 2008 Olympics about \u2018hating the sport\u2019 at that point in your career. How prevalent of an issue do you think that is in athletes, and would you want to see people in the sport coaching in a way so as to be aware of and try to help swimmers avoid feeling that?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>MR<\/strong>: I think that was just a moment of what today we understand as burnout. And for me, it was chasing external rewards instead of just enjoying the sport. That\u2019s one of the things that Ken taught me, is what do you actually enjoy and do more of that, and the performances will follow. Yes, I think coaches should be more aware, but the other side to it is, if you make everyone enjoy it, you\u2019re going to have a great enjoyable practice, but not everyone\u2019s going to get better. At the end of the day, I want to be careful that sometimes what I have trouble with with many of my colleagues is that they say, we\u2019re coddling over results. At the end of the day, professional sports are extremely hard and painful. Maybe the goal is to make everyone feel good, but that\u2019s a different goal than achieving performance. To say, oh a great performance will feel good and you\u2019ll feel good with a great performance and all you have to do is be happy, no, that in my opinion is nonsense. Sometimes you have to suffer, and painfully suffer to achieve something. There\u2019s no touchy-feely psychology tricks that can make you not suffer.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Out of the Pool: Markus Rogan on Performance Psychology and Finding Identity The life of a swimmer extends well beyond the pool. In a new occasional series, Out of the<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8367,"featured_media":460692,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"dois","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[3,10],"tags":[224,8301,127109,52028,327],"class_list":["post-460597","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-featured","category-world","tag-2004-olympics","tag-markus-rogan","tag-out-of-the-pool","tag-sports-psychology","tag-stanford"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO Premium plugin v24.3 (Yoast SEO v24.3) - 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